Thoughts about EQL2

2005-11-25 01:52 by term

We aim to get EQL2 up and running asap and I'd like to share some of my personal thoughts regarding a few changes. This is by no means anything official, this is just a few ideas that I have and we want some feedback.

Splitted divisions:
Some players find the minping rule unfair,players that are used to a low ping now have to play with a high minping against teams that are used to high pings. I understand their point and I see no other way to make this more fair then to split some divisions pingwice, tho not all divisions are large enough to split.

More maps:
I think maybe we rushed the big three (tb3) only decision a bit, imho five maps would be more interesting. The two new maps could be decided by a vote, each team could get one vote that is kept secret until a voting time expires. And why not different maps in different division?

Home/away matches:
With splitted divisions there will be fewer matches, unless each team play against all other teams twice. To make this more interesting a home and away system could be used. The team with home map advantage may pick the third map instead of tossing tb3 maps like now. I see no good reason that the third map has to be one of tb3.

Playoff/qualifying:
Obviously a playoff for each division would be funny, but there's a few issues that needs to be discussed first. Shall teams be able to qualify for higher divisions at all or shall admin simply move teams? Maybe playoff that qualifies two teams to move up and automaticly move down the two last teams in each division? And what about home map advantage in the playoff for the better ranked team in each playoff match, like in the Swedish hockey league ;)? Might make the non playoff matches more interesting or?

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Comments

#1 2005-11-25 02:34 by lol term

U cant split division...
Like the name of this league say: Europen quakeworld league. So if someone Signup have to face fact to play vs players who dont have 13ms everywhere. So clans who dont agrea to play in "europen quakeworld league" should make thair own league "13ms quakeworld league" that will resolve all problems. thx.

#2 2005-11-25 02:41 by lol term

home and away games :)) buahahah tell me for example: we got clan from cz. and clan from fin. but routing is so smart that cz.ppl got ping 120 at fin swerwer, But fin.ppl got 50ms at cz.serwer. so u got two games: 13vs120ms and 13vs50ms
but by term idea its fair. ok. thx. :)

#3 2005-11-25 02:45 by lol term

another great idea by term...
move down the two last teams in each division? (c) term
so another example. in this Eql season two last team atm are: Leftovers and SSC
tell me what thay will do in div2?
zzz pliz start think ppl :)

#4 2005-11-25 02:47 by lol term

Plizzz we want nqr :(

#5 2005-11-25 06:51 by Diki

Div1 only tb3. This div is way to elite for shit like cmt4. This way games are good and tight. Btw. is something changed with wargames or why i used to have 25ms there and now 40 :/

#6 2005-11-25 07:06 by fix

I dont think term ment pings pings with home/away system..wasnt it about the maps? home team getting advantage to pick 2 maps of 3 to be played..if 5 map system is used this will get even more interesting...

you could split the division in order to get more games by makeing ppl play each other twice..but i dont its needed 'cause of the ping issue

atleast this season in div2 we havent got any problems with pings..even while playing with .pl dudes :) 25-41 scale works just fine.

#7 2005-11-25 08:04 by Specci/Ari

imo split divisions are exactly what we need, who gives a shit about the name of league as long as playing is fun which it isnt with above 40 pings :< also that option about having home advantage and playing 2 matches vs each opponent is also very considerable, gg Sassa!

#8 2005-11-25 08:43 by Hooraytio

the home/away matches is NOT about the server, its about picking the third map as far as i can see.

learn to read and atleast be man enough to use realnick..

#9 2005-11-25 10:14 by HighlandeR

ping will always be an issue unless you change EQL into SWEQL.

>Some players find the minping rule unfair
nothing new and same wrong as it always been.

clans have different pings due to connection they have and geographic distance between them, no rules will ever change that.
All you can do is 'hide' those differences by:
-minping
or
-pingwise split of divisions

where splitting divisions means changing EQL into SWEQL, PLQL, RUQL, DEQL, etc, etc.

there's not much enugh clans in each country (except fin/swe) to do that.

more maps:
5 maps is fine, but dont change the additional 2 maps every season.
there's was cmt3/4 in previous nqr -> take'em back to the map pool.
Learning new maps each season isnt fun a t all.


ps.
there's no such thing as being used to high ping -> it's a typicall bullshit forced by lowpingers.

#10 2005-11-25 11:08 by Mursu

Ye maybe not "Used to High ping" but those who always play with 13 ms do suffer from 40 :(

But its not 40 in all of these games and its not completely unplayable either :)

#11 2005-11-25 11:12 by Oho

I think vote is best thing to pick new maps.. then it`s fair..

#12 2005-11-25 11:26 by Sassa

well voting for 3 maps might do it and rank them!

splitting the divs into A/B would be good for div 3 and 4 maybe?
and maybe then have 2 games with the away/home system as u said term?

#13 2005-11-25 11:32 by Specci/Ari

sassa: more excellent ideas from you :D ass licking at its finest

#14 2005-11-25 11:35 by Samgorod

Finally somebody does something for this anoying ping issue. Way to go EQL crew! Hooooooraaaaayyyyyy! This is something that NQR never did. (althought it was otherwise good league...)

#15 2005-11-25 11:35 by Diki

haha what i have wroten.. it was too early for me. Well.... just tried to say that tb3 is best for div1. :)

#16 2005-11-25 12:10 by ok98

The div1 teams should be able to vote on "No more maps" "cmt3" "cmt4" or someting else. If more than 50% want "no more maps" its tb3 fore eql2 div1. I think this would be fair.

#17 2005-11-25 12:25 by mipa

only div1 should play tb3? all the noobs has to learn new shitmaps every season just cause nobody cares about them for their lack of skill in quake?

and about the ping.. if 10 clans in a div and 1 of them is polish. the polish clan demands minping to each game and all games are 45vs45 ping. other clans play 8 games with 13ping in a row so the "getting used to high ping" should get you an advantage here. at least for me the game feels very much different when pinging 3 or 4 times higher than the normal

#18 2005-11-25 12:42 by bambuz

voting maps...
it could be done in two rounds so that gimmickery is minimized, ie that in the end there's only a few choices left.

#19 2005-11-25 13:16 by HighlandeR

mipa-> certainly ping 13 feels very much different than ping 45, noone is questioning that.

but 45ms is 45ms no matter how often you play it
just becuase you feel it being worse than 13ms you had last game doesnt make it an adventage for other team.

as i said before, either you agree to play with higher ping either you change eql to sweql, fiql etc.
there's no 3rd way

>if 10 clans in a div and 1 of them is polish.

you are forgetting one thing
poles dont ping 45 in poland.
we ping ~25 in pl (some 13, some over 30)
so the 45ms is the ping we suffer to play with against swe/fin/other clans

#20 2005-11-25 13:56 by plast

sorry term, but i havent read more bullshits since long time now... IM USED TO 25 : PLAY ALL GAMES IN POLAND? this is so stupid and retarded thinking...

we dont need our own POLISH DIVSION EQL, we have our own POLISH QW CLAN LEAGUE where we play with pings 13-26 (there are some exceptions), so basically spliting it by ping will mean END of EQL and possibly end of QW scene as it is

i personally am not interested in playing 13-52 vs 40-60, it's SO BULLSHIT you're used to it and we're used to 40+

making 'nordic division' and 'the rest' division is also very stupid, 5 clans divsions? rotfl. just make your own nordic league, but don't name it EUROPEAN quake league, and you may be sure i won't sign up

someone has to told you all of that, cause highlander is just too polite, you have to FINALLY UNDERSTAND you don't have EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS to play as pure lpb (13-25)

and yes, you can do what you want

the other ideas arent very good - IMHO

maps should be scene decision, but i personnally dont like to play on maps which i even dont have on hdd just to spawn and lost 20 minutes, and i dont have time to learn new maps, i like playing the standards when i only got time to play. tb3 is standard, cmt3/4 grim schloss e3m7 and other eXmY arent (maybe they are in nordicland)

home/away system with tossing third map from bigger mappool is just bad for the same reason imho, thats TOO BIG advantage

playoff/qualification games are OK, but admin decisions are also OK, just use both of these ideas wisely and its gonna be OK

#21 2005-11-25 13:57 by spoink

split divs because of pings?
thats the most fucked up thing ive ever heard.sorry thats just hilarious...:(

#22 2005-11-25 13:57 by konk

agreed with HighlandeR...we(portugese) are some of the ones forced to play with high pings because we have bad connections to any country outside Portugal but in Portuguese servers we play with 20~ ping. So its a constant disadvantage for us playing any games on EQL since there's no PT clans on our division.

Theres one thing i dont understand tho...is how can't u have fun playing qw with more then 40 ms...well i can just speak for myself but i enjoy playing it even with ping 100 if needed.

This is called playing for FUN! Some of u guys take it to seriously as if u were gonna win a fuckin gold cup!

#23 2005-11-25 14:31 by Hooraytio

its ot fun to run around and get pl attacks so that u drop into the lava trying to jump over it, or beeing lagkilled when u have 200/rl.

furthermore it really sucks loosing to clans that u would normally win just because you had to play a sorry ass 80ms game in some galaxy far far away..

this comes down to what you think is funny, if you think playing a match where even both clans have 100ms fine, but dont expect everyone to think likewise.

And about maps. Why not play tb3? We have tried to play cmt, exmy and some other maps, but as soon as you start playing ladder games or practice everyone goes TB3 TB3. whats the idea to learn new maps all the time and play them in an official game like 4 times? Its not fun to play 20 mins ffa instead of playing tb3 and get some real teamplay out of it.

Go play some new games if you want new maps, i think that the qw map-pool was decided a long time ago and this cmt bullshit and other maps was just a short period of lameness that have past by now...

#24 2005-11-25 15:49 by Sassa

so lets get to some conclusion around this ping issue..

Is the system we got now good?
In NQR they had divided the divs into A/B and i really dont recall any1 saying it was bad like u guys are doing right now!

We dont got the same minping system as NQR had but is it working good for u guys?

For what I know so far in this eql we have had only 1 incident with ping and I think i resolved it pretty good. or what do u d2/3tk guys think about the decision in that game? it was fair right?

#25 2005-11-25 16:22 by Specci/Ari

hmm, it seems that scandinavians want the divisions to be splitted so why the hell not, at least this is my conclusion based on many finnish qw-players opinions, if we dont want to play vs middle-european team with high pings why should we? and the name-problem is solved by naming divs geographically, nordic-division and middle-european division, and we still can call this European Quake League. Just split the divisions please. And I still agree with Sassa with that home-advantage-system, it brings something new to this game. And Plast, how can you say that split-divisions bring end to the QW-scene? for how often you play versus finnish clans for example unless it is some "mandatory" game like ones EQL? it

#26 2005-11-25 16:46 by Hooraytio

exactly, its not like i want to play 45-80ms games unless i have to.

allthough some middle-euro clans can play at wargamez or splatter and get a descent ping for both teams. I enjoy playing vs polish clan DC since they ping good to wargamez, but i dont really want to play clans_of_devils_ms on a regular basis

#27 2005-11-25 16:55 by Sassa

its not really regualar basis to play 1-2 times / season?

and on EA (splatter) its not that big diff to play with ping 40..

splitting up the groups will not be a big deal really.. just group A/B but there will stil be a qualifying round after the season involving clans from both A and B so they still got to play vs each other.. for div1 and 2 I dont think we need to change it to A/B, but maybe for 3 and 4.
If u dont remember, NQR had the same system in the last season they run..

#28 2005-11-25 16:58 by B1aze

>how often you play versus finnish clans
every day
>how can you say that split-divisions bring end to the QW-scene?
poles can play only vs poles in this case, russians vs russians. clans with players from many contries like dk, ru, nl, pl, uk and so on.
nowadays they all can play vs each other.

if u wanna to play vs .fi with 12ms just don't sign up EQL. But i think its not very good decision.
Yes, i wonder how poles can have so bad connection.
Look at this map: http://map-site.narod.ru/evropa-2.j pg
Most .ru players from Moscow(Russia) have 52ms on wargamez, but most poles have 52-58 here. Hm. Poland 3,4 times closer to Denmark. And i use adsl, some of my friends have 39 on wargamez. They use lan connection.
But it is not a reason for banning these players from eql.

And, of course, it will be good to have 2 new maps in mappool. Just vote. May be its need votes for every division. Like div1 tb3 only, div5 tb3 only, div2-3-4 - tb3, cmt3, e2m2. Its to fun to play these maps. And you can build your tp very fast. For example i can compare cmt3 tactic with dm3. Its very close.

Sorry for my english.

#29 2005-11-25 17:38 by ez

I want to see schloss in competitive play.

#30 2005-11-25 17:46 by Avenger

omg! u all sux :)
split division? moust stiupid idea i ever heard.
div1 normal tb3
div2 customs?
why u want make other rules for lower div? If u dont have what to do u should go change your bicycle color on pink and write on it "pussy".

pings...
all guys who think that we are use to 40+pings are idiots. (srry but its true).
Swe/fin clans demange to play on thair serwers. Guess we should demand same for us?
Like fix said in this eql he didnt get any ping problems.
Best solution is minping 38.5 no other way to make "EQL, NQR" etc.
U can always make rule: Only for fin and swe:)

Yeah and sorry for my english. I hope everyone get the point :)

#31 2005-11-25 17:54 by plast

Hooraytio: "furthermore it really sucks loosing to clans that u would normally win just because you had to play a sorry ass 80ms game in some galaxy far far away.."

It sure iz, I'm pretty sure we would have won all eql games that we lost if they'd been played with equal LOW pings (13-26), but I know I can't do anything about it. I totally agree about maps tho.

Sassa: "Is the system we got now good?"

It's not ideal. The better system (IMHO) would be something like that: 'The value for the minping must not be higher than 50 unless both teams agree otherwise. The idea is to get average pings most equal. The order should be like that: 1. most equal server, 2. rerouting to get avg pings equal, 3. minping of max value 50 if neccessary.'

"We dont got the same minping system as NQR had but is it working good for u guys?"

It's doing what it's supposed to do, but I still think the changes are neccessary. Simply because if one team has avg ping 13 and the other has one player with 13 and three with 50 it forces them to play like that, cause they cant set minping higher than 13 (following current rules). That's why I think it's not ideal.

"what do u d2/3tk guys think about the decision in that game? it was fair right?"

It's retarded that two Polish clans had to fight @ wargamez (only last game in Poland + rerouting cause of ONE foreigner in 3tk) but yes, average ping was equal and I can't say a word that it wasn't fair.

Specci/Ari:
I play against Finnish clan when there is no less pingwhine opponent available and we're looking for prac/ladder.

B1aze:
"Most .ru players from Moscow(Russia) have 52ms on wargamez, but most poles have 52-58 here. Hm. Poland 3,4 times closer to Denmark. And i use adsl, some of my friends have 39 on wargamez. They use lan connection."

That's not true. More than half of Poles have not bad connection to wargamez (mostly ~39, max 50), but not @ 18 CET, but @ 22-23 CET. It's not my fault that Scandinavians prefer to play 20 CET and they all are going to work at 5 AM theirs time. I always give them the choice: later with lowers pings or earlier but higher pings.

"div2-3-4 - tb3, cmt3, e2m2. Its to fun to play these maps"

For you perhaps, I don't have e2m2 on hdd even now and I played on it maybe 3 times (in NQR). On maps I fully agree with Hooraytio.

#32 2005-11-25 17:55 by Hooraytio

god damnit, fix that url 8)

#33 2005-11-25 17:59 by Term

Plast et al, I wrote "some players", personally I think the current minping rule (that I made) is the best alternative. And I don't think 40ms is a problem, it is when players have ~60ms in half of theire matches, like some teams in div4.

#34 2005-11-25 18:03 by Hooraytio

besides, its not the ping that is the problem, its the massive PL attacks that comes with it.

sometimes i have played vs clans with 80ms and did fine cuz of the lack of PL, but when 25-30 PL kicks in there is only so much u can do...

#35 2005-11-25 19:01 by sassa

horatio ist some damn polish servers that u get the pl attacks, i do 2 but then choose another pl server instead!!! or ea(splatter)?

#36 2005-11-25 19:20 by HighlandeR

no point for setting max minping value
if it's neccessry to set minping 90 (like rot from .pt against dot from .ru) so be it.

more maps is fine especially when it comes to play best of 7.
and best of 7 is the way to play final games (like playoffs) as it reduces 'luck factor' :D and basicly gives more games to enjoy for specs :D

#37 2005-11-25 19:57 by Term

Yes there should be a "tb3 only" option and the idea with home/away matches is obviously usless with only 3 maps. I don't expect anyone that only likes tb3 to like the idea at all. On the contrary, the idea will probably force some tb3-only-clans to play other maps more frequently, unlike in NQR and that might make divisions more even.

#38 2005-11-25 20:20 by murdoc

nl alot of players??? lol there are like 10 left

#39 2005-11-25 20:21 by Hooraytio

sorry but best of 7 maps is over 2 hours, and i dont think most players want to play that many maps in a row

#40 2005-11-25 20:57 by HighlandeR

Erm, sorry, i meant best of 5 :D
so that you can have all 5 maps played

#41 2005-11-25 21:09 by Hooraytio

hehe, thats more reasonable

#42 2005-11-25 21:37 by plast

bestof5 omg, some clans (like mny) have problems to play their bestof3 matches, for ex. they've played vs zoo for 3 days (1 map per day), tho I'm not sure if they already ended it :)

anyway: more maps per match means earlier start, earlier start means worse ping, worse ping means more whine...

and bestof5 would be fun only when you got 5 or more maps, but I prefer tb3, so... ;)

#43 2005-11-25 21:43 by HighlandeR

bo3 for group games are fine
but playoffs should be bo5 with 5 maps in the pool, so that no map is being played twice.

#44 2005-11-25 22:03 by Zaq

i do indeed believe that there is a thing such as beeing used to ping, i still remember when i was on a 33.6 modem, and i was used to 140 i still played as good as the 40 pinger because i was used to it. In my opinion its the same as you force someone to go from fov 140 to fov 75 or, maybe sens 12 to sens 3, its all about what you are used to.

anyways, more maps seems to be a good idea.
I dont really want split divisions, seems wrong.
i like the home/away match thing, but not in that way. The "visiting" have to chose their map first, and then home team choses,but the third should still be a election or something.

there, ive said what i think.

#45 2005-11-26 00:03 by siikah (div4)

First of all I'd like to suggest that you guys should shut the fuck up if you

don't have good suggestion, or at least a little more control of your temper

than a seven year old child. Just flaming someone who tries to make our (ONLY!)

4on4 tdm-tournament more enjoyable is so fucked up.

I don't think that the divisions should be split with ping in mind. I would

never the less really appreciate smaller divs where you could play each clan

twice, kinda makes the "daily shape" your clan is in less important. That doesn't require a split though, but will make the seasons longer (which is a
good thing).

Some countries have major problems when trying to play across the border, but

personally I haven't had any problems with that this season in division 4 at

least. Playing .dk with minping has worked out. On one occasion (dqm vs nnm) it

was REALLY bad, but that had nothing to do with the ping since we actually had

about 40 and no ploss. The problem was probably mintic on the server (oooh how I

wanted a rematch on a server with a proper setup...).

TWO MORE MAPS! Wohoo! Gimme!
If each division would have two personal maps that would require the moves of

clans between divisions to be made by the admins (if not the division final would be on maps you've never seen ;)

#46 2005-11-26 00:03 by siikah

Hm. A lot of \n's there. Odd.

#47 2005-11-26 02:05 by vb

minping sux :<

#48 2005-11-26 04:26 by mipa

ok im not sure though but i THINK all the polish are startubg to get used to high ping (and as a realist not as someone else), when playing all 10 games out of 10 with 45ping it _MAY_ give u a somewhat some could call advantage when the other 9 clans palys each other with 13 pings each. IF YOU DO NO NOT UNDERSTAND MY POINT DO NOT POST (at me)

the trouble with home/away maps would be inactivity.. clan A challenges clan B for about 15 weeks but doesnt seee them. then clan B comes in and challenges them and claims that it is their prooperty to choose the map u know................ ............... .............

#49 2005-11-26 10:07 by plast

your point is wrong, that 10 games with ping 45 during the season are like 2% of all games played by particular polish player in that time, almost all of the rest is played in poland: duels, 2on2s (very popular), mixes 4on4, and clan 4on4 vs other polish clan, only clan 4on4 vs foreign clan games are mainly played abroad cause almost everyone thinks exactly like you. (proof? only 1 game from our 8 games in current eql was played in poland, that was game vs Veterans, they had ~40 in Poland, we rerouted, and everyone was happy (no minping), the other clans either have 60+ in poland or do everything not to play on polish server even if they have 40 there)

#50 2005-11-26 11:41 by B1aze

ok, mipa, some clans started to used practing. They played 30 games a week with different pings and it give they some advantage when the other 9 clan played only 1-2 game a week with ping 26 or 45.
So, please, make div with really active clans (div A) and div B with inactive.

#51 2005-11-26 11:54 by oh lala la la

dramaramarama

dramarama

oh dramaramamama rama

dramaramadamadingdong oh!

#52 2005-11-26 12:14 by Avenger

Mipa... omg.
The truth is that ping 38 is playable, of coz its not 13 but if u got skill u will not see muth diferent.
i never whining about ping/minping shit just always played, no mather about pings. however 13vs50ms isnt fair so if some of clans want get fair ping. I think 38vs50ms should be fine for everyone.
Mipa did u try play vs 38ms Fom? I didnt saw any diferent... thay are good and thay win, u sux and u loos ping wont help u.

#53 2005-11-26 13:10 by Hooraytio

can you stop the personal abuse

#54 2005-11-26 18:22 by Willgurht

the real problem is that splatterworld servers feels lagged on 39ms. no idea if it's HW / OS / imagination whatever. old qw.nl servers used to be ok with 39ms.

Wargamez might be full during seasons (we only had ping problems with our games when all wg servers were in use).

Some russian and polish servers feel ok, even tho some ploss might hit u at times.

split divisions: NO its EQL
maps: whatever, but e2m2tdm before e2m2 plz :P

#55 2005-11-26 19:00 by sassa

I have never felt the lagg on splatter as ur saying, use g2nQizmo, that might help

#56 2005-11-27 14:19 by Hagge

there is so much bullshit in all the comments for this post that I'm just gonna say one thing: YOU SUCK! :<

#57 2005-11-27 16:31 by Hooraytio

hagge: sluta irca b?rja spela..

#58 2005-11-27 17:01 by Eta-Beta

For those who whine: Term said it was 'some thoughts'. Not that it was new rules for eql2. Don't comment if you don't have anything concrete to say. At least he's trying. You're not.

#59 2005-11-27 17:09 by record

maps=clan leaders voting (tb3 only, cmt3, cmt4, e2m2, schloss, etc) k?
and stop this fucking 13ms whine :< im used to play with 25 ms in pl so dont tell me that poles are used to 50...
whats wrong with ping 40 for fuck sake? unplayable or what? :<

#60 2005-11-27 17:26 by Hooraytio

ping is no problem when under 90ms as long as there is no pl spikes...

pl that makes all jumps, shots and moves totally fucked up is not playable...

#61 2005-11-27 18:07 by record

"no problem when under 90ms" horatio? :) hehe tell this to all 13ms whiners.
i mean ping ~40 and pl 0.
u got pl spikes? choose another server, use qizmo or something.
i have pl 0 at splatter/wargamez/xs and im playing for fun only and dont whine about playing with ~50 ms :)

#62 2005-11-27 18:49 by Hooraytio

the pl i got cant be removed with qizmos, but i think its only temporarily

#63 2005-11-27 19:35 by Hooraytio's net admin

Sorry Hooraytio, it's permament.

#64 2005-11-27 23:40 by Hooraytio

ill get another isp then 8)

#65 2005-11-28 09:47 by Hooraytio's next isp admin

will get you whatever you do, whereever you go !

HA HA HA HA !

#66 2005-11-28 12:13 by Hooraytio

sorry evil net admin, but your evil plan has failed

now i have 13ms and 0pl again and forever =(

#67 2005-11-28 15:43 by Hooraytio's next isp admin

just wait for your next EQL game (HA HA HA HA HA!)

#68 2005-12-01 17:35 by Hooraytio

i dont have any more eql games this season so its a-ok

#69 2005-12-01 19:51 by Link

Wow, still debating about maps? How strange is that???!!! :)

#70 2005-12-06 13:37 by Hooraytio

link 4 teh win

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