I hope there is an option to vote "TB3 ONLY" additionally.

I thought cmt maps were done for?
Now we're going in circles again. Insted of cmts why not include and soon-to-be-finished q3dm14 into the pool?
And what is schloss doing here?
Thank God, muffin's maps and Naughty are here.

Ill take that part about q3dm14 as a suggestion then Kloze.

Would be nice with the suggestion ParadokS had combined with each division having their own seperate map pool.

Thanks for that suggestion as well.

It is a bit of self-contradiction, isn't it? On one hand you say you want to hear players' opinions, on the other you completely ignore that lots of players (even those in favor of tb3) would like to hear the "tb5" decision in advance - a scenario you have ruled out now. Decision from a poll cannot be anyhow "better" than decision from authority in case of maps - no map is significantly better than any other. Seems like you just don't have the balls to decide?

Also I can't really understand why you are even considering tb3 only. You haven't really tried a proper 5 map pool yet. That is, you only have feedback from the seasons where maps were not announced properly in advance.

Finally, you've practically decided right now what maps will be played in next EQL - it will be tb3. Because even I (pro-kenyan) would vote for that in this situation. It is the safest way - you don't get surprised by some unknown map you haven't really practiced.

So, I don't really get the point of this post. It would be just easier to announce that next season will be TB3, with a big .jpg of the middle finger with "to all kenya lovers" label under it.

I dont know if you have been sleeping under a rock Johnny but exactly what maps have you seen being practiced between clans the last year? Try to decide on extra maps for a game when you have practically nothing to go on in terms of demos from actual clan pracs.

And dont come and say that: "They cant prac maps if they dont know what maps we will decide on" because if clans actually pracced a few new maps and showed some interest then we would naturally choose those maps.

A proper tb5 has been tried multiple times since both cmt3-cmt4 and cmt1b-cmt4 combinations have been used in several seasons of both nqr and eql and the interest was mild at best.

The problem is that, in 4on4, the interest for other maps than TB3 is very small.

We dont know what maps besides TB3 the players supposedly want, thats why we have to ask them in a poll.

I wouldn't ask any QW-scene ANY advice, if it would be their to decide we wouldn't have ie. antilag, truelightning, bright skins, bunnyjump or anything, we would be playing on start.bsp with keyboard only.

So please go to get some balls through surgery and decide the maps. You're gonna get blamed anyway.

Out of all the things you mention maps is probably the easiest thing to change and we are still playing 4on4 on TB3.

Pekto: so true.
Polite asking won't help this scene: it will lead to the easily-predicted outcome: ranting, trolling, whining.
Just impose two additional maps for the last time or:
- resume your previous idea of tb7 (tb3+ ctl5, ctl6, naughty and prolly q3dm14) with the rule of tossing maps by Carapace. Then create EQL KENYA with 3-4 custom maps and after that include the two most popular into the EQL 16 just to create a stable tb5 for God's sake.
Period.

RIOT!

We need new EQL ADMINS!

1. Are you sure a majority of players want more 4on4 maps?

2. Why do we need more mapsin 4on4?

I see the same 7 persons arguing for more maps all the time while the rest of the community is playing pracs and mixes on dm3 dm3 dm3 dm3 dm3 dm3 dm3 dm3 dm3 dm3 dm2 dm2 and even once in a while on e1m2.

The popularity of the additional maps when used in leagues havent been all that high.

#11 You are free to ask if you could join the team just like anyone else.

Yes, I know there weren't any two major maps played last few months. But that's the point of you, as an authority, to decide what should be played from now on. You know what are the candidates, I think those you presented are ok (except for schloss maybe). So just pick two and that's it? Of course now it is too late for e.g. naughty as I don't thing that map got pracced at all.

The thing is, only minority of players follow the custom maps scene, so the vote will be mostly uninformed. Whereas you have quite good overview of what maps are good. Deciding instead of them is a kind of "service" - lots of them don't want to bother.

I do appreciate the effort to make this thing "democratic", but it kinda defeats the purpose. In duels there is much higher chance two people will agree to play a custom map for fun. But in 4on4 the situation is much more complicated, I guess I don't need to tell you why. Waiting for clans to start practicing custom maps is not always going to give you results.

What came first; the chicken or the egg? ;)

"A proper tb5 has been tried multiple times since both cmt3-cmt4 and cmt1b-cmt4 combinations have been used in several seasons of both nqr and eql and the interest was mild at best.

The problem is that, in 4on4, the interest for other maps than TB3 is very small."

If interest is so small, and success so mild... why isn't the obvious choice being considered... T B 3 !!!!

"The problem is that, in 4on4, the interest for other maps than TB3 is very small."

The problem is that a stable map pool is needed to make good maps popular. Ppl are lazy and dont prac what is not going to pay off in the future.
Thats more than obvious. So for fuck's sake constitute a stable map pool with the help of Cara's idea and a kenya tourney if needed.

we have a stable map pool.. its called TB3 for 4on4 and TB5 for 1on1.
If you want other stuff you should make stable tournament/league with other maps.

You shouldn't hold the whole scene hostage with crap/new maps when you are the only game in town imo.

An egg comes out of a chicken. A chicken came out of an egg. :-D

Democracy got way too many flaws to make it a decent choice in a thing like map decision imo. Just state the two maps you're gonna use now. The earlier the better. Even though the best would be that it was announced 3+ months ago, the earlier the better still applies.

"we have a stable map pool.. its called TB3"
Not in the case of even EQL tourneys: the unstable pooll (maps changed almost every second tourney) hinders the process of stabilizing the maps. And it's much better to have it set once and for all than have all the whine every autumn.

Wouldnt "having it set once and for all" eventually make it boring and once again start riots about having more maps? It would also put limitations on the mappers success in having their new maps played.

Making an admin decision about those 2 extra maps isnt easy either. We dont have the slightest clue about how ctl5, ctl6 and naughty plays. I tried to join mixes on them but either it was too few players or ppl left after 1-2 games. And a mix isnt the best way to judge a new map either. Getting a clan to prac them is another story alltogether... All we know is that cmt1-3-4 dont play all that well, and that, alltho massively criticised, cmt4 seems to be the most popular map out of the three.

Hoora: you know it that if the maps like ctl6 had been announced earlier, they would be pracced. Thats more than certain.
Now, in this break, not only arent they played but tb3 also is played very rarely. Only mixes on dm3 are going on.
And pls dont make this "cmt mistake" again.
And of all custom maps, ctl5/6 were at least played: you can find demos easily.

I still dont see the point in announcing that map X will be in the pool _before_ we have seen some clans prac it. We dont have any idea about how it plays. And there are almost no pracs during summer.

So thats why we changed from admin decision to vote.

"I still dont see the point in announcing that map X will be in the pool _before_ we have seen some clans prac it. " - DC and Sublime. Ofc it stopped because noone will pracc maps when they're not confirmed.

"Wouldnt "having it set once and for all" eventually make it boring and once again start riots about having more maps? It would also put limitations on the mappers success in having their new maps played." - with Cara's idea and with 7 maps in the pool who will want more?
And the so called "mappers success" is a very debatable issue. No map will get popular in TDM if its not in official leagues. So what do you expect?

Just have balls and announce the maps or use Cara's idea. Then creata a kenya tourney with those new maps. Then decide.
Democracy is not always an option

Make it TB3, then make parallell custom leagues to actually try out the new maps for the future.

I just dont agree with you kloze.

Hoora: Thats the only good solution so far imho (if you want to stick to tb5 formula). New maps for the last time (with addition of Cara's concept), then a custom tourney and 2 most popular maps make it into tb5 (if you want tb5 ofc). It's as simple as that! :)

27 posts on this topic is pretty low :( There should be a decent flamewar going on right now. If not on this topic, what else? :(

There are several point of views in this case, I don't think there is one and only "right one" either. Those who atm says that there aren't maps announced early enough ain't praccing much are they? Since if the praccing would be active all maps could have proper tactics already when season starts. And I am not trying to say that the level of gaming would be the same as in tb3, but that has taken years so same will happend with new maps.

Why imo not tb3 only -> Kenya tourney would run alongside with the tb3 season -> Kenyaplayers would learn the maps and they wount get accepted any more than earlier by the tb3 players no matter how good they are. They would most probably hate them even more because the kenyaplayers would actually know the maps. So there would probably be no chance for new maps somewhat ever again, this is why I personally still do want kenyas to be a part of one season every year.

TB5 has one flaw, there are several new maps out there, and still I predict that the old known kenyas will be supported just because people know better how to play them. So just because of lack of knowledge and prac there will most likely not be any new maps this season either.

TB7 with dropping maps would have one big benefit -> Almost all maps would get played at some point and there would be proper feedback and pracs because of that, even on kenyamaps. There are several mappers atm trying to make good 4on4 maps which hasn't been happening for years and years, so we actually have a chance of motivating them to make more maps. Bad side here is that all the teams best maps would be dropped of right in the beginning, which might be a good and a bad thing, depending on from whos point you are looking.

And no, you are right, there are lots of angels and opinions I haven't considered while writing this post. But there are also lots that I forgot while writing this, so hope you can understand some point of views that not maybe everybody has taken in consideration so far!

I'm all for tb7 with the dropping system: this way maps will get a proper feedback as Itsinen has already stated.
Ofc, it may happen that as a result of the dropping only tb3 will be played. Nevertheless, it creates more opportunities for new maps and definitely will be more interesting to see/spec.
1. Each team drops one map out of the 7
2. Each team chooses one map of the remaining 5
3. Of the remaining three, two are tossed and the last one is played as the decider...
...or the decider is always one of the tb3
Is that ok?

I think it was zero who mentioned it but something that really should be done is to put the kenya season during the winter and the tb3 season the one during the fall.
Because even if you were to announce the maps earlier this summer it's not like there are any teams actually playing.

The qw scene doesn't die between the fall-winter season the way it does during the summer so there would be a much better flow and consistency if tb3 was now and kenya next season.

Note that I'm not arguing at all what kenyas or wether kenyas should be played at all etc.

Well, somehow I feel like the admins has chosen the route of indecision. And more is lost due to indecision than decision, as the saying goes.

The worst case scenario wouldn't be if a lesser map entered the pool. The worst scenario would be if a map entered the pool that no clan had any idea how to play. Or even worse, have never seen. As an example, E1M2 and DM2 are pretty far from perfect maps, yet clans know them very well and still find them fun to play (on average), which makes them acceptable to "everyone".

That's how I feel about it.

Decisions are better than no decisions, as far as I'm concerned.

I also agree with rkd in post #31.

1tsinen that arguments holds NO truth what so ever.

Div1 clans have mostly tried any custom maps and given them a chance. Even if they were introduced in custom map tournaments first. So that's not true. If the maps are really that good, and some teams showcase good games, div1 clans WILL test them also.. and if they give good games they will get picked up eventually.

You talk as if noone has ever given any map a chance besides tb3.
I don't think you know HOW many 4on4 games have actually been played on custom maps or episode maps the last 5 years. It's quite a bit. And we are not all shouting in rejoice when you say the word kenya or custom maps.. why? because TB3 is just way better - EOD.

If you don't lobby for kenya maps with proper custom map tournaments like Link did a lot of work for, it is doomed to think you can just add random new maps to proper tournaments... sure it would be nice with new great maps for 4on4 - but this is just not the way to do it. If you don't wanna put in the work - you won't get the result and are better off sticking with TB3.

#33 I am talking all divs, not div1 only, since it works a little different in different divisions generally even if maybe shouldn't. And yes I know lots of kenyas has been played during the years, what's the surprise here? And haven't several maps already prooven that good games can even happend on bad maps? And isn't this discussion about getting atleast 2 maps in to the pool, not how much better tb3 is and how it will always be better? I doubt any map will ever beat tb3, but we are just talking about a good map that plays well, just to narrow it down to 3 maps doesn't exactly help anything tbh :)

And still, if someone wants to arrange a kenya tourney, go ahead, I don't have the time. I doubt anybody of the admins have time atm, barely to keep the regular seasons going. So in most of your cases I would even be happy that there is a league excisting at all. And yes, you could get help from us others organizing it but our time is limited, but still, there would be some help atleast.

About the doomed part, most of what's doomed is if we drop out the kenyas, who will make new maps then? What will happend to a big part of the scene that aren't intrested in playing only tb3? Are you willing to go in to the historybooks for the decision? :)

I dont think that there is a big part of the scene who is uninterested to play on tb3 only tho. The part of the scene who want more maps is about 15-25%. And we dont know how many of them are actually so unwilling to play tb3 only that they would quit.

so by your own estimation is that 85-75% of the scene do NOT want kenya maps... and DO want TB3.... so why are we still discussing what random maps to include in this tournament at this time??

I think Paradoks is concerned about the fact that makes TB5 interesting: It might be so that we'll get more clans that can do well in Div1! To be honest it seems like the one's wanting TB3 only are the one's that are on the "top of the hill" in QW and they don't want their place to be endangered.

If you're not on the top of your division or QW I'd be THRILLED about TB5 with new maps, now YOU have change to actually dethrone those old legends!

Kenya promoters would be better off launching another league. Same EQL admins have been through these debates year after year. Every time the arguments are more or less the same from both sides. Why would you put hopes on them changing their minds now or ever?

Most important thing is that a proper voting system is used i.e. not first past the post but rather an instant-runoff/Alternative vote system.

^gg captcha-nick :)

First of all it's more like 38% (see blAze's doodle poll), second of all, they aren't asking to drop tb3 maps, they just want to add 2 extra. TB5 seems pretty proportional to these requests? 60% of maps (3 out of 5) are those which ~60% of players want to play, 40% the other way around?

From that perspective even the previous trend to have every other EQL tb3 only seems unfair, as it makes things 20/80 instead of 40/60. And now even 20/80 is too much and it should go 0/100? Isn't that a big egoistic from the tb3-only people?

#37

I couldn't disagree more with your speculations.

#37

Yeah right.. remember the time when tVS raped in kenyas just like they raped in tb3? I remember them owning with scores like 400-100 even vs clans that played kenyas quite a bit. The skill difference ain't going anywhere, and changing a map won't change that.

People don't like kenyas..well because they don't like kenyas. There is nothing more to it.

"People don't like kenyas..well because they don't like kenyas" - I coudnt laugh more at such "striking" an argument.

I can bet fortune that you would hate e1m2 if it were introduced nowadays. Thta would be a perfect example of kenya.
Ppl dont like kenyas because:
- they are not willing to learn new maps for various reasons
- no sophisticated tactics have been invented due to the unstable and inconsistent map pool
-humans in general are afraid of changes. But if the things had stayed that way in QW, we would still be playing dmm1 in duels, wouldnt we?

Yeah im sorry but #37 is just plain wrong.

Also, #41 I didnt say that pro-kenya wanted to drop TB3. I just said that I think that almost none of the pro-kenyans are aginst TB3-only that much that they will quit qw if it is TB3-only.

Non-tb3, or to enlarge this, non-id maps have been, are and always will be a nuisance to some. Quality is irrelevant. I played many league games on non-id maps, and many were enjoyable. Some maps are better than dm2, others are better than e1m2. But as far as the seriousness factor is concerned, id maps mean more. The fun attitude that some advocate regarding new maps may very well be true, but for many that isn't the point of playing in a league.

So many people have given negative criticism regarding the admins' decision of making this basically a tb3+2 additional maps tourney, and the 2 additional maps are voteable. Yes, I also would have preferred an authoritarian rule as is "maps are xyz", but the EQL admins seem to listen to the players and want to propose a solution that satisfies most players. One thing I'd like to say is that: It's not YOUR league. No matter if you're strictly tb3 only, or would love a league with totally free map choices (I tend to be in the latter), but the people who run this league put in a lot of effort and hassle and reserve the right to get the league running as they consider acceptable.

The QW environment is pretty democratic. We do not live under some regime that denies free speech and free play. If map XYZ² were incredibly good and accepted as a great 4on4 map by 70% of the players, it would be played in every season. But that simply is not the case, and I think it's unfair to credit the EQL staff this indecision, or rather conservative approach. Please be fair in your judgment. If you think QW really needs a custom map league, create one and organise it. I for sure will join (and my team, hopefully ;)), but do not "demand" it.

And again and again the overall consensus is .... DROP KENYAS IN EQL... TB3 ONLY PLEASE... CREATE YOUR OWN KENYA LEAGUE TO TEST NEW MAPS.

If you wan't new maps in EQL it HAS to be introduced the right way. It's a delicate proccess. Can't just make some new map and add it because you think it looks nice.
If you don't wanna do the legwork then accept the fact it shouldn't be introduced in this formal arena.

I hear from admins and players all around the same arguments... people want and will accept tb3 only. It's the official standard... if and when custom maps will be introduced it has to be good solid maps and they have to be tested to some degree... and a custom tournament is fine.

And we HAVE gave them a chance.. some of the custom maps have been played in many seasons... and they have mostly been deemed unworthy after many official games. So don't give us that argument that we are so afraid of new things. It's just not as easy as putting new stuff into the tournament when we only have 1.

#47 & #48
Really not enough with one regular season of tb3 only and eql:pro with same system? And capslock wount help you btw :)

So i hope that a new kenya tourney is imminent and it will involve at least 70% of the scene. It would be great to have both EQL pro (only tb3) and EQL kenya running in the mid-season between EQL regulars, wouldnt it?
But my opinion is that for the last time EQL 14 should include custom maps, hopefully new ones just to warm ppl up to them.