o clan for div1 !!

I hope to solve the division issue in a near future anyway. This might be the last season with all these "Hi I am an idle former div1 player with bad ping and 20% expected activity, approve my div2 application now" players.

Lol.. why not just move a bunch of teams up, and people would be free to play wherever they want.

You wont solve a disease by treating the symptoms. You need to treat the cause.

Move a bunch up doesnt solve anything since there will be massive whine about them having no chance to win the playoffs. "Already decided which 4 goes to semis" etc.

Lets endure this season and do something about the divisions for next season instead.

stfu and let us enjoy our first activity points, best thing that happened to eql since... well just best ;) we enjoyed the rape :E

Or if you would just have moved down BLT to div2 everything would be fine. Now they accepted div1 so I'm guessing everything still is fine? Allow div2 teams to have some div1 players so we hopefully will get Better and improving teams and not the insanely huge skill gap between top clans and the rest.

Having a bigger div2 this season setting the skill level higher is imo really neccessary if we even want to have a div1 in the future.

Just face it; majority of the players are totally useless compared to div1 players and have no clue how to improve. Well one will improve when playing with better players, as in a div2 with higher standard, like this season. So I believe its a good thing to allow div1 players in div2, but still not allowing a team of only div1s.

true dimman

Yeah you improve when playing with/vs better players. So... Why dont all these former div1 players want to improve by teaming together and join div1? :D

That logic is always so good when good teams want to get pracs etc, but when faced with harder opponents than themselves they just fold and join seperate div2 teams instead :)

"... Why dont all these former div1 players want to improve ..."

Because..... which was my whole point .... they are _not_ the ones that needs to improve, but the majority of the other players.

We need to bring the mainstream level up. I know I can be competitive in div1 if I had the time to play more, but unfortunately I don't.

On the other hand I'm fairly sure that despite my semi inactivity I would rape most regular div2 players in 4on4. I hope that explains it.

And since you will rape div2 you want to play there because?

I dont think you would agree that it is a good idea that mid-div2 players wanted to rape div3 just to "bring their general level up a notch".

No it doesnt explain why you, and others, first put time into becoming good enough for div1 and then name various reasons for why you shouldnt form a clan together and compete in div1 and instead join various div2 teams.

At what point have you improved enough to quit div1 and be semi active in div2 raping?

Also, how come it is mostly mid/low div1 players who do this? Tired of getting spanked by the div0/highdiv1 players? :)

So, all in all, you havent explained anything. Just excused yourself from div1.

You are so lost Horan. How about the facts they have presented? Div1 for most of us would require huge amounts of time invested in a VIDEO GAME. And for what? Virtual penis? If you are going to play one or two nights a week, you are not going to make it in div1 (unless you have already been in top, say Milton or Murdoc might well be able to surf casually in div1).

I feel its really good that theres a few div1 geniuses helping to improve the teamplay in div2 or even div3. It would also be a really good idea to bring div2 level players for div1 clans if there are such players who are willing to give time for qw and are motivated to improve! A bit like when Niomic teamed with SR. I'm not speaking for all the div2 clans here but I guess most players do not want to give up dinners with family, sports, beers with friends etc in order to play a VIDEO GAME in the highest level. I like playing qw a couple of nights a week and prefer not to get such games as yesterdays mixed (managed to sneak 8 frags!). It's a fun alternative for TV and does give some stimulus to your brain too.

Im not lost. All the facts presented speaks more and more for the abolishment of divisions since there are no rewards for improving to the next division anymore.

I just wanted to hear the real reason for not playing in div1. Not just that they arent active enough, or got bad ping. I mean, is it better to ruin some div2 game with your inactivity and bad ping? :D

You cant go tell div2 clans that they need to improve and at the same time dont want to improve yourself by playing stronger opponents.

Also meant to say that surely I like improving our game, bringing a div1 tactics guy in helps us doing that without extra time spent in front of your PC.

Seems like someone is looking for topfraggers here instead of team scores (or are pissed off they are not the topfraggers because someone who doesn't belong to their division stole that spot!). How many rape games has there been because of div1 players in div2? And as you said, mostly they are LOW div1 players who join div2 clans. Whats the difference between high div2 playe and low div1 player? Might it be the teammates?

As I said, it is mostly their reasons I disapprove of. And to be honest, when the much better player saves the day its not so much about tactics but instead individual skill.

Also, the amount of highdiv2 players is kinda low (as it should be) so alot of their opponents will be kinda bad in comparison.

Oh please, I get the feeling you are referencing Diki here. Hes got ping issues, he is not available all the time. Dude, that does not ruin a div2 team. We dont need him in every game, we do not need me in every game, we do not need anza in every game. If we have four online, we play. Lost to sd2 the other day, might have been different with diki playing. But if there was no diki in FU, our teamplay would probably be worse and this might have been a rape?

Div2 teams are not ALL about winning. We enjoy the game too.

It is also interesting that after a while discussing this there are always some accusations creeping in. Either I myself want to win and make it easy for my clan or I am jealous for not having a Diki/votary/squeeze/kassim/etc of my own :P

Great reasoning.

My idea and goal is to try and make it competetive and fun for everyone at the same time. Yeah, its hard.

Yeah, if it was all about Diki etc I could just have manipulated the divisions so that such clans ended up in div1. We didnt make a large div1 this season because we knew that it would lead to massive whine and inactivity. Something we cant afford with only 32 clans.

So far it seems like most clans actually are active.

Is div2 somehow fucked up now?

There is always the problem with the lower skilled teams giving up when the top end of the division gets too good since they have no chance, not even in theory :P, to get even to quarters.

Which is also a common argument for not wanting to be a lower skilled clan in div1. "We have absolutely 0 chance to go to playoffs so why play?"

if hora wants reasons, im here to input my own which goes as follows;

Only way i would have taken part to div1 would naturarelly to play with cmf, and since fifi didnt want to play this season, as in my opinion hes such a big part of the team, no fifi,no cmf,no div1.

for me it would be all about nostalgy at this point(playing with cmf,and in div1)...keeping alive the memories of the old "hc" times when there actually was huge amounth of competivines and desire to beat them all. times when atleast i did spend huge amounth of hours playing the game.

but since things didnt work the way i would wanted...here we are.

call me twisted, simple minded or what ever. i selfishly assume i have every right to do what i did.

little smile x)

The problem arises when some clans wont accept that certain players in their lineup earns them a place in a higher division. I know its not very rewarding to respawn for 20-60 minutes (ive done it oh-so many times).

Because of this, for this season we made a "pure" div1 (alltho some teams wanted to play there anyway despite not having a div0 lineup) to avoid the whine and idling that usually occurs when we try to make div1 a little larger.

What i dont understand, however, is why we should add div1 players in order to raise the general skill lvl when in fact the clans who did this before (became better and was put in div1) folded after 1-2 seasons in div1 because it wasnt fun and they couldnt reach the playoffs anyway.

If the division2 clans should get better there must be a good reason for it, not just becoming cannon fodder in div1 and quit playing.

Its just a flawed argument that better players will raise the div2 skill level.

Arguments like Fix just gave are in fact easier to understand and also makes sense.

At least I enjoy much more an even game than getting supporting forum comments from people I don't even know (not that I ever got one).

Also, divisions are what they are made, and this time Div1 = Milton and Dave so I can understand less active/good/whatever Div1 players fleeing to Div2 where the less serious competition lies.

In addition to that, making a new team takes energy and it is much more tempting to join some a team that has been around at least for some time.

I think we all enjoy even and exciting games. Its just that the skill-gap in div2 has exploded after the start of the season and alot of games wont be remotely close. The lowest div2 clans will get nearly as bashed as BLT in div1 :P

Yeah, creating new teams suck but there are players who are active in div2 who used to be in the same team last season or the season before. So the reason for quitting that team was something else than everyone going inactive I guess.

#24: Well welcome to reality, it will always be like that. Question is if we want to gain _something_ on it or just keep up the braindead'ism that has been.

"I just wanted to hear the real reason for not playing in div1. Not just that they arent active enough, or got bad ping." - I gave you the reason, either you are blind or you are plain stupid.


" I mean, is it better to ruin some div2 game with your inactivity and bad ping? :D" - Really stupid comment.

I don't play in top div1 given the reason I explained before, can't see how I can make it more clear.

Lower div2 teams are allowed to take in higher skilled players to improve ofc, same rules goes for them?

When having higher level games you will automatically play more focused and I'm fairly sure most people will improve without even thinking about it.

Teams that doesn't belong in div2 should be in div3.

What's so hard to get about that? I also seem to have a lot of people thinking like wise.

"All the facts presented speaks more and more for the abolishment of divisions since there are no rewards for improving to the next division anymore." - Look at how the situation has been:

The reward has been that they have stayed in the same division because the skill gap is too big. So again, this is what I want to change by increasing the average skill. How is that bad?

When scene gets older and doesnt get new players the ammount of middle skilled players will grow while there are less and less top players and complete noobs. There is nothing bad in it.

I think div2 is better than ever. This time we really can see some nice playing and the overall skill level has increased.

Even we so called div1 players in div2 would get united, how many games we would play? Atleast Im happy if I will have time to play 10-30% of games in div2. And if we would join some active div1 clan.. we would be benched every time they have that real and good lineup. So after a while these would just retire qw.

How many years have you Hooraytio played in div2? Don't you ever make progress? Maybe its your time to do a next step and go div1! :)

maybe dc2 belongs to div3?
Have you guys ever think about this option?

I'm happy with the games in div2 now, and I think that even with some teams having div1 players, the games are being very competitive and nice.

lol people already complain about divisions when they loose with ~100 frags difference.
-> Next season no more divs please :)

Not sure why you guys disagree with each other, to me it seems like your requirements are compatible. If for example there would be div1A, div1B and div3 divisions in the following season, div2 players can still improve by having a div1 player in their team, as dimman suggests + nobody would whine they have to suffer against true div1 teams, (as Hooraytio objects). Those few div0 teams would be split into two groups, so the suffering would be minimal + there would also be enough of games against regular div2 teams.

I am not the one thinking that everyone should or could progress. I strongly oppose the notion that everyone can become div1 with enough practice. What I also oppose is that while at the same time you tell regular div2ers to progress you drop down to div2 because you have progressed enough or because you think div2 should progress for reasons unknown.

Also, its nice to see that dimman must call med blind or stupid just because he has too little time to play on his real level. If you have so little time then why is it worth your time to "rape all div2 players" as you put it? :)

The main thing here isnt even div1 players in div2. It is that the division system is flawed and since so few clans want step up, players rather relax and step down, it is very hard to make equal and competetive divisions.

#31 is pretty much spot on what I would suggest. More or less anyway. Also, nice boildown of what has been discussed :)
Small gaps between opinions usually lead to canyons when given enough time :P

"Teams that doesn't belong in div2 should be in div3."

If it was that easy there wouldnt be a problem each season when we make divisions :)

JohnNy_cz is pretty much spot on here. What he suggests was actually tried once in NQR, I personally thought it was the best way to introduce division 2 teams to the highest level of 4on4. You basically have two split groups, Div1a & Div1b, you seed teams based on this seasons performances in div1, say #1 and #4 goes into Div1a and #2 and #3 into Div1b. You then do the same thing with div2 teams, this way theres at most two tough games (based on what teams signup for EQL15) and the rest should be fairly even. I don't see how this is anything to complain about. You then make two different playoffs, perhaps Gold and Silver.

I would like to include all teams tho. Otherwise you still get the division whine on the borderline between those who end up in the 2 seeded divisions and the ones who end up in the "old-div3".

"Blahblah we are too bad to be in seeded divs and clanx should take our place instead of being in div2"

Hooraytio: The reason I wrote that was because you asked for the reason why I didn't want to play div1, which I had already answered, and second you were stating that div1 players would ruin div2, which imo isn't based on any facts. I think current div2 looks just fine when div1 players are spread out between teams.

You're also taking the phrase out of its context. It was meant as an example of the skill difference between div1 players and div2 players, and not really possible to read as I would rape every current div2 team. Secondly many of the current teams in div2 has div1 players, increasing the skill level.

I wouldn't join a div2 team in the previous seasons, but looking at the current lineups I don't see a problem with joining a div2 team, as long as it doesn't get unbalanced over the teams. The skill gap between the higher div2 and lower div2 will most likely increase, I agree on that. On the other hand the lower teams also has the opportunity to recruit some better player too.

In my case, I hadn't even reflected that phrenic is playing for Immortals, lol, dunno if me joining is such a good idea then, but I'm guessing its up to you to decide whats balanced and whats not in this "topped" div2.

Split the "starplayers" from div1 teams, and we will get like 30teams in div1.

noone wants to play the "rape-div".
that will salve the problems.

nice to have all the good players in like 3teams, thats why your all alone in div1.

Since when should a league base their decisions on the inactive players with shitty connections? It's a contradiction that knows no limits.

dib, dc2 does not belong in div3, ask hooraytio ;)

I think it is nice when a div1 player pulls the team and teaches others, like fix in iabl. Unfortunately not many players/clans have this possibility. So Hooraytio, how about the following method for the next season:
1. generate a list of all players that have signed up
2. Assign them in the EQL committee ;) a number of skill points, from 0 to 100 perhaps to each person.
3. Add points for players in each team
4. Draw 1 or 2 lines in the middle of the list -> gives divs.
5. ???
6. Profit

Cara, what decisions are you talking about? If it's decisions about whether these "too good to play in div2" guys are allowed to play in div2, who else could you base your decision on?! Hello world!

Anyway, so far div2 looks okay? The real problem can't be these div1 players shitting the league, that's not happening is it? It's more "they won us just because they fielded a div1 player". What about all the other players who played div2 last season and are now on par with these div1 guys? Or all the FU guys who played in div1 a few seasons ago, the whole team must be lame... There will always be skill differences between players and that's life. This is not individual competition, this is 4on4. Maybe we shouldn't post screenshots or give fragcounts individually... Or not let the div1 member take any quads so he gets less frags?

Definitely sounds like there's room for some other type of tournament.

Just try to divide the div1 players who want to join div2 teams into the "bottom" teams of div2 instead of allowing all of them into the allready top of div2.
Right now it's admins who are increasing the skillgap within div2, not the div1 players who want to join div2.

#38
That was my idea when I suggested the Random teams tournament on the QW.NU forum.

You're team isn't lame, that doesn't change the fact that diki said he would very rarely be able to play and that he has shit ping.
So far he's the most active player in your team in EQL, and he has had great ping.
So that first of all was quite a lame lie, secondly the problem was never that diki shouldnt be allowed to div2, my problem with it is that he's allowed into a div2 team that is allready a contender for the title.

"Or all the FU guys who played in div1 a few seasons ago, the whole team must be lame..."
The skill difference between diki and the rest of fu is large, there's no denying that, but again that's not a problem either.
So, again the problem I have is that admins are creating a division based on the skill of the teams, then afterwards letting the top teams get MAJOR increases to their lineup, while the bottom teams are left in the dust.

Mostly talking about squeeze to an allready votary empowered Oclan, not that they needed another div1 to be able to compete.
Phren in immortals, fix in ablz, this is how div1 players should be in div2 teams.

Keep the div system. Keep the whine.

#44
Oh my god rkd. You little whiny bastard, Chosen has a better team in paper and even you are better than me! What about Hagge? Div1 start player, Xero as well div1 and better than me, Sajko who is he? Some div1 fake? seems to be your best player. (Sorry if I just dont know you sajko).

I am the most active player? Read the stats... Kippo and Buggy is. And I have played some pracs but you can check how many maps we have won.. We have played vs div1 clans or div2 clan with paradoks or someone high div1 as a standin. So we are really trying to make progress but it doesnt happen in one night.

You are free to route thru me anytime. The fact is that Im using shared 100mbit with 50 ppl (university network) so fridays and saturdays are best for gaming (and those are the days I have been playing so far). Anyway if someone starts downloading my ping jumps 100 and pl 10-20. And I remember in these two games seconds that I had lag and lost weapon cause of it and even worse left a pack.
Yes I know its not your fault that I have unstable ping but still. Im moving next month so hope I will get a stable connection then.

And for last, why should I pick some random clan to play with when I can play with my ex clan and still some players are the same?

I also note that Milton and me was in div2 not so many years ago and no one whined back then.

And last there is no clan in div1 I could or want to play with.

We didnt play vs FU on a friday or saturday and still you played. Dunno why you twist the facts all the time :D

The problem still isnt div1 players in div2. So cool it down a litle. The problem is the division system. Period.

Ok it may have been wed or thu, really cant remember... usually I play just weekends. Still I had some lag problems... not huge but still. Who cares about days anyway it was not the point...

Divisions are only right way when we have serious/pro and sunday players.

You all guys should play more and talk less.
Is there anyone who is definitely NOT having fun with the league? I don't think so.

The point is nobody like to loose and when that happen, the reason is because the other team has div1 players.

Once that is fixed, the reason will just change to another. Lag, inactivity, bad luck, rainy weather, whatever.

The pos-gaming whining is natural and will always exists.

In Australia in the era of smackdown (say, 2001) the scene was a lot smaller than even EU now and there was one team which dominated both SD1 and SD2. In SD3 one of the strongest players from FA (the Australian one) defected to my team of TF'ers, THDM and everything became a lot more even. We won! (yay).

Obviously a couple of 'superstar' players extricating themselves to a lower team and boosting their capabilities has the effect of weakening the team they're leaving and strengthening the team they're joining - possibly leading to a more even competition overall.

I'm not saying that's something that should happen now, because I'm sure that those still playing together in div1 are quite happy with the friendships etc they have there. But maybe it's something that those individual players could consider on a personal basis in the future.

As to the whole playing to improve etc thing or being happy where you are thing... I've been playing this stupid game since 1997 and 4on4 since about 2000. If I was ever going to become some sort of quake superstar it would have happened by now. I could probably manage div2 with enough practice and maybe some tp mentoring. But I'm old and have a job and other things to do which mean that's just never going to happen. I suspect that a lot of other players are in the same boat and while they get a kick out of the competitive side of things, it's not something that is at the top of their priorities. That is until the season starts and things start getting a bit closer and then all of a sudden the pseudo-casual qw'er gets a bit more keen and wants to win. If you're in this for the competitive side of things, it's sort of natural, I guess. Even if you just want a hop around and shoot stuff, you still kinda want to win.

I have no conclusions on this last rambling point.