I'm with BLooD_DoG & Co on this one. Use the server that evens out the ping the most. It's the only fair game.
Even ping = fair.
Uneven ping = unfair.
Everything else is just querulous gibberish.

hold on lemme get a beer

yes you are right. they are examples. HOWEVER. the RULE SAYS :

In cases of American clans meeting Europeans the games should be played on servers where Americans PING THE BEST IN Europe.

wich in this case. the examples match the RULE itself.

GOOD READING IS GOOD READING. I LOVE MATH

Ye, Vegeta, ofc u r whiny bitch - game played 3 days ago, but u can't stop whine.

> we only play at uk/nl
Read rules better - UK/NL only as example, but not as rule. Hooraytio said this 3 times in this thread already.

some nice hotchat here

ahaha veg $

so much whine. From now on, we only play at uk/nl and minping 51. if u dont accept u will get a w.o. Rules are rules and need to be followed. I am hoping we meet again at playoffs. whiny bitches

sane, spec have ping 38 at playground 360 days in year. And some times in later night he have 25.
Using playground+pangela proxies he got 77 over usual 90. In time of our eql game he had 38 at playground, but last night he got 26 at playground. It's like lottery.

Just saw spec play cream on froschroom for duelmania, for some odd reason his ping wasn't 90ms as you stated, but 78ms. He did whine for a quick 30sec but still agreed and played. I wonder why that was a different story in EQL, and it clearly shows you didn't even try to use proxy. So what's the real reason now

I'm out of popcorn :(

With proxy ofc. Without I have unstable 64-70.
Other have same or worse too.

> Even if not, your minping on foppa should be 51 if we wanted to enforce the rules:
But u didn't ask 51, u ask 38 - dot set delay_packet.

VVD #20, I was replying to hooraytio who asked why we played CSN without complaint, not comparing your ping with CSN's ping.

VVD #18, did your team try to proxy? I'm not sure :( Even if not, your minping on foppa should be 51 if we wanted to enforce the rules:

Bulat - 65 vs 90
Spec - 65 vs 90
Dot - 51 vs 65
Tmp - 52 vs 77
VVD - 51 vs 65

That means 57 vs 77 average for you (without trying proxy), is that worth making the average ping difference between us much more in your favor when it is already in your favor? Also, I played with bulat (duel and 2on2) many times all around the world, his skill with 170ms is still scary :)

#12 "If you already accept the blame yourself then what is it exactly you want?"

Want to whine a bit since we were all annoyed at how things happened :) But more seriously, it doesn't hurt to have a discussion about the rules so things are cleared up by the time the playoffs come around.

#13 "(and at the same time much worse for 90% of the European scene than they usually play with)"

IMO that's part of a tournament experience. When people prepare for matches, they (should) watch demos, discuss tactics, and, if necessary, spend 20 minutes practicing on a high-ping server to get used to it. Some people play 90% of the time with 12ms on troopers, does that mean they shouldn't be forced to play with 39ms on foppa if that is more fair for the match? Use the same argument but on a bigger scale and that is exactly the scenario when facing us. We are still playing on a European server after all!

#13 "If everything is unfair to begin with, why participate?"

We play for fun, we realize it's already unfair but activity is good. The complaint isn't about us being at a disadvantage, it's about being forced to play with an even bigger disadvantage than what is necessary. As I said before, we never even forced anyone to minping 51 against us, and we always tried to help people proxy to get as low a ping as possible.

@Tmp, I agree with ovr that skill and experience shouldn't affect the rules or force a handicap. I'm not sure if your team even tried to proxy to lower your pings? Plus, we may have individual skill but we don't have any 4on4 experience together (0 practice, only these EQL matches). Zee rarely 4on4s and was seriously asking us div5 questions about e1m2 earlier that day (how to open gl room?!?!?!).

Again, I already took full blame for being impatient and "accepting" the no-negotiation tactic for the sake of activity. Nobody is trying to "cancel" the result.

Finally, I have nothing against the MB guys. I played with VVD in the draft league and we were on voice together, and I also teamed/dueled with the other members on many occasions. No issues with anyone individually. At the end of the day, everyone just wants to have fun (winning preferable!) and there shouldn't be any hard feelings :p

> We played CSN on froschroom as well
CSN have BETTER ping on froschroom than we at foppa - look at screenshots.

ovr, don't get me wrong, I appreciate and respect the fact they (or any other team) participates. It is QW after all and year 2013/4. What I don't understand is the idea to make a "cinderella" halo around themselves from the start and assuming every game will be unfair.

> you want 51 instead of 64
Bulat - 65 vs 90
Spec - 65 vs 90
Dot - 26 vs 65
Tmp - 52 vs 77
VVD - 38 vs 65

#16
I don't think experience in TDM and personal skills should be used on that discussion. If your team lack experience, you should practice more or aim the opponents from the same level as your team.

Saying that more experienced/skilled teams should play with higher pings when it's possible to make it even, is the same that say that Milton has to play without mouse, since he has much more experience and skill.

It's a very risky concept that you have of "punish better teams" because they are simply better.

I understand your attempt to make it more "balanced", but this is a league, and better teams should get to the top.

Man, most of our players (me, spec and Bulat) had 78 in UK. Ofc, it resulted in some difficulties in our negotiation. Every team has its own position: from one hand, we have no experience with TDM on high pings(78 is rather high for us, except dot who had 64), while u had played most of ur games at 100+, from other hand it wasnt very polite from our side to force u to play at DK, at this point i understand ur feelings. But first point i am trying to make is that qw rather liberal thing: nobody can force u to make certain actions. The second point is that ur team have much more experience in 4on4 (compared to us), so frankly speaking on even pings probably u will have to go to div1, not div2. And on UK we had ping general difference kinda 30-35 (avg 72-78 vs 90-110), and that meant definite win for ur team (taking into account ur personal skills and 4on4 experience).
So, theres always can be other point of view...

#13:
I personally think it's very nice that they are willing to participate, especially because they make the scene more active, not to mention that on the last EQLs the NA managed to put in a very competitive team that gave lots of work to DIV2 teams.

Also, I'm not sure if NA has enough active players to sustain a league, and maybe EQL is the only choice for them to still have some fun in a competitive way.

I think BLooD_DoG complain make sense, but now it's too late. They tried to be nice and make the game happen with MB, even under bad conditions, but they ended up loosing. If the rules are as stated above, next time, ask for WO saying that MB refused to play on an acceptable server.

Should be common sense to play on a server where average pings are as close as possible.

Think about QW and EQL as a whole and not about individual advantages/wins, ffs.

Aside of what happened and on a more tehreotical note - why do NA players join EQL if they consider the best possible pings they can get in Europe (and at the same time much worse for 90% of the European scene than they usually play with) unfair? If everything is unfair to begin with, why participate?

If you already accept the blame yourself then what is it exactly you want?

Rules are rules. If they are as Blood_Dog quted, what is all fuss all about?

Fot TT the server felt laggy and sluggish but we uttered no complaints.

This is ridiculous.

One more thing I forgot to mention :)

"It can't make much of a difference now can it?" I already said above that it does make a difference, and the difference becomes more noticeable the higher you are. But, even if that's not true and there really isn't much difference, then why does the other team care? I don't think they even tried to proxy to froschroom to see how low they can go, just demanded that we get worse and they get better. Again, my mistake for accepting and pushing my team to play :D

We played CSN on froschroom as well (see my 90 ping), no protest at all because it was the best available server. We didn't even ask for minping 51 as the rules allow for! We even explained to some other opponents how to proxy to get the lowest possible ping they can. The difference when you already have a high ping is actually very noticeable, 168 vs 200 is a huge joke. 90 vs 115 is a regular joke. Also, you are only mentioning our increase by going to foppa, you are not considering the opponent's decrease. It makes a big big difference.

Anyway, we are all ready and willing to have fun and play with a huge disadvantage, but it feels a bit cheap when we're forced to play with an even bigger disadvantage for no good reason. The whole thing was unnecessary with orders (not suggestions) by the other team to switch servers, no willingness to discuss, ignoring the written rules, etc...

listen hooraytio, i'm about to wear some clothes and fly to europe to drag you back to canada to show you what the difference between 169 vs 205ms is and 90vs115 is.

:)

its 169ms in uk vs 205ms. It is a big difference, duno how you would even know if it makes a difference or not? tell me how do you know? didn't think so. Give me some intelligent insight Hooraytio.

You played with pretty much the same ping vs csn. Why didnt you protest about it then? Was this game more important? Bd 90 instead of 114 and sane 180 instead of 200. Cant make that much difference nog can it? I guess its just kinda hard to play Russia vs NA.

Hooryatio forgot his own rules again, WOOPS

Last comment about the rules!

* The maximum minping that can be required is 38ms (51ms vs an american team playing on a european server).

We didn't even ask for 51 because we're so cool :D

* In cases of American clans meeting Europeans the games should be played on servers where Americans ping the best in Europe. Which are usually UK and NL servers.

To me the wording is pretty clear that the match should have been played on the server where we pinged best, which is what I asked in #5 above. The word "should" in this context is prescriptive, not suggestive.

XOXOX,
BD

I don't typically get involved in discussions about whining, but I'll say a couple of things:

1- mb and us each had 4 players on Froschroom, average pings about 65 (I think) to 115. VVD refused to play and suggested Foppa to be more fair. We asked how that would be more fair since our average would go up and theirs would go down, and we are already at a huge disadvantage to begin with. After barely a few minutes of discussion and me offering to prove the worse averages on foppa, the reply was something close to "we're not negotiating", and then mb all left us to play another match and kept us waiting. That wasn't really necessary and turned what was a civilized discussion into an ultimatum...

2- Even if our average only went up to 135 on foppa vs 115 on froschroom, "average" doesn't tell the whole story. Sane ended up with 200ms which is essentially useless, especially against a couple of 39ms players. Props to him for trying and still doing better than anyone else could dream of!

3- I take the blame for pushing my teammates to play on a completely unfair server (as opposed to the less unfair but still very unfair server we always play on). Everyone else thought it would be a waste of time, and they were right :) I just didn't want to get into discussions about walkovers, etc... and was trying to promote activity.

4- The argument that "you are used to high ping anyway because you always play with it, so it doesn't matter if we force you to come to foppa" is not valid. First, most of my team barely plays in EU (I'm the only semi-active player in EU, and I don't think we ever even played on the same 4on4 team outside of these EQL matches, not even in NA). Second, there's no such thing as getting used to it. Forcing people to play at 200ms because you want 51 instead of 64 is a little ridiculous, why not just ask to play 4v3?

5- Hooraytio (and I'm not attacking you here), you mentioned something like "they're not used to playing in UK, and this is a European league, so you need to make them happy" and that is a bit strange. It's a European league, and we're thankful to be part of it, but we should be playing on the most fair European server, no?

Love :),
BD

"should" and "usually" are kinda important words in the ping section.

ping whining pos, read rules and enforce it hooraytio. clearly says UK/NL