#30 2009-12-20 14:27 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

e1m2 is lacking too much, it's a boring combination of sg-flood and +back-cs.

dm2 doesn't have pent, ring or lg, but at least it compensates it a bit by having more ras and rls to keep it interesting.

#29 2009-12-20 14:12 by Hooraytio (83.233.83.XXX)

i just dont think every item is needed on every map...

#28 2009-12-20 13:59 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

"I think we need a map without ra, lg and pent since this calls for a whole different way of playing the game."

Let's also take away ya, quad, rl, sng and ssg, because that too calls for a whole different way of playing the game. Would't quake be most interesting with no armors, wpns and powerups at all? Just one big boomstick flood. :)

#27 2009-12-20 13:55 by randomDude (62.68.187.XXX)

stev, u suck in div 3, because you are a div4 on tb3 (despite of u play all day), the only map you are a kind of usefull, is ctm1b, what noone really knows. Thats why you fight on forums for ctm1b, because you wanna win....

#26 2009-12-20 13:53 by Hooraytio (83.233.83.XXX)

What i dont get tho, are the ones arguing for taking away e1m2. I think we need a map without ra, lg and pent since this calls for a whole different way of playing the game.

Also, in order to make most ppl happy i still would like to use the opt-in system (some stick to tb3 and some go with more maps) again since i think it worked really well during the last nqr season. Yeah it might be flawed (the tb3 clans do not have to adapt to new maps and can prac more tb3 yadayada) and whatnot but does it really matter?

#25 2009-12-20 13:53 by weirdo (88.113.9.XXX)

Great to see f0m playing with their best line-up! Aaaa but SR took the cmt1b card here and that sucks. Havent got the patience to read all the bs above about cmt1b but to pick that shitty map in the semis is just plain boring and lame.

#24 2009-12-20 13:41 by niomic (89.27.30.XXX)

Stev,

The point was that cmt3 is a lot better known, but still not that high level of play. It's a map where only a few clans might feel they actually have a strong advantage. I can't believe people are still spouting bullshit about it taking x amount of time to learn, where x is very small. How is it then that after having played dm3 for over a decade (with notable breaks inbetween), I still feel that I am progressing in the map and so are many other people. The point is that great gameplay comes from everyone knowing the tricks, do's and don'ts etc of a map, and that takes a really long time. I would even argue that a lot of players simply don't have the capacity to learn all of those to a truly high level (I might be one). For a soccer analogy, all the top div players know pretty much what to do in certain situations. The difference comes from truly exceptional players and better played special situations that are practised overandoverandoverandover...

The scene as a whole has done really unbelievable things to keep this game going and I find myself very grateful most of the time to be in such an active scene. Despite this, the arguments over less played maps vs maps that have been played _a lot_ really seems quite polarized to a saddening degree. If the scene as a whole really wants new maps in their biggest leagues, I believe that will happen naturally, or won't, in the same way, naturally. If you call that stagnation, then you're not noticing all the other great progress that is going on all the time in the scene. Maybe I should feel sad that we're not playing dm6 as a 4on4 map anymore, or e2m1? Or that dm6 isn't being played in casual 2on2 at all really these days. Those maps had their time and now they are part of qw history (mostly). But they were never even close to the same kenya level as what we are trying to push with cmt1b.

#23 2009-12-20 13:09 by lib (90.230.83.XXX)

a new map?! this will not stand! it would take literally 30 minutes out of my busy nerdlife to learn!

a bloo bloo bloo

#22 2009-12-20 13:04 by murdoc (86.80.100.XXX)

zzz again the boring map pool whine.

#21 2009-12-20 12:47 by Kalma (88.115.44.XXX)

Quick browse through group matches(including playoffs would skew stats obviously):
cmt1b was played 20 times:
- Clan TKs played 5 (25%) of those
- Div 2 saw some close matches
- Div 4 saw only 2 matches (with the most rookies?)
- In 1 match it was picked just to annoy Hooraytio

#20 2009-12-20 12:15 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

cmt3 may have tighter games but it's still a crappy ffa map with undefendable positions and no tp.

cmt4 is both well known and a good tp map.

#19 2009-12-20 12:11 by Kwibus (213.46.205.XXX)

My opinion is cmt1b.. naw dude.
cmt3.. yeh it's fine. I''ve played and specced quite a few good games on it.
It's ofcourse not topnodge teamplay yet, but it can't compete with the hours of playtime tb3 has.

Replacing a tb3 map with cmt3 is blasphemy imo. I wouldn't want to miss any of those maps allthough I'm still utter crap at dm2. I don't care, keep it. It's good.
e1m2 demands such a complete different playstyle then the other maps so it should absolutely stay. I love the map.

#18 2009-12-20 11:29 by Hooraytio (83.233.83.XXX)

:)

#17 2009-12-20 11:23 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

Stev, you are arguing a totally different case. Nobody ever said the map wouldn't get played. What was said is that the games in it are not going to be good for a long, long time. And that turned out to be 100% correct. Not one single round played in that map was interesting. I think it's a bit silly to make some 10-year roadmaps with an old dying game. We shoud try to make this season that we are playing now as good as possible. This was probably the last time we saw f0m playing (and maybe tVS too), and instead of getting hot interesting rounds like this e1m2 here, we got boring kenya rapes half of the time.

#16 2009-12-20 11:18 by willg (85.229.237.XXX)

the reason cmt3 got picked so few times 2 seasons back is that the teams that now picks cmt3, played cmt4 instead. Atleast that is true for my own team.

#15 2009-12-20 11:03 by Stev (86.41.138.XXX)

Someone mentioned a rumour to me that NQR will be the next league and will feature only tb3. I see no reason why EQL cannot continue to feature a pool of 5 high-quality maps.

Alternate rebuttal: People who don't have time to prac those maps shouldn't have time to play leagues. :P

#14 2009-12-20 10:59 by Kalma (88.115.44.XXX)

Make a kenya-league that runs in parallel with TB3-EQL. People who have time to prac those maps should have time to play two leagues.

#13 2009-12-20 10:31 by Stev (86.41.138.XXX)

When you say that the only reason the maps have increased popularity this season is because teams pick them to have an advantage against their opponents (which is the only reason a team picks any map in any league) this doesn't explain why teams didn't do it in the past.

6 plays for a map in one whole season is a shameful statistic, but in the following season it achieved over 6 times that. CMT1B has already reached a minimum of 26 plays in its first season, and, unless attitudes totally reverse between now and next season, its popularity can only grow!

By explaining all this unpredecented activity away as teams wanting an easy win, you're reducing growth and exploration to a shameful act of cowardice; an act which apparently didn't exist until this season, despite many custom maps featuring in past leagues.

I think there are as many pessimists as conservatives arguing for a strict, unchanged, (stagnant?) 3-map pool; People who think that it is pointless to try as they see no future.

When you give up on quakeworld and its future, that's when it has no future. When you cater to people who don't play, that's when people stop playing.

#12 2009-12-20 09:29 by niomic (89.27.30.XXX)

There is no comparison in the level of play in cmt3 vs. cmt1b. The former has been played semi frequently in leagues for many years and has come out as one of the least crappy kenya maps. cmt1b however, has last seen more play like what 4-5 years ago? And even then it wasn't all that great on higher div levels.

I understand there is a slight problem with having only four maps in the pool. But that problem is quite small considering that the only bo5 games are the div finals.

Anyway, I think there will be a lot of _better_ discussion before next season concerning the map pool and I think we, as a scene, needed this season to make things clear.

Stev, when you refer to the numbers, it doesn't really tell a story of a new good map in the pool. It tells exactly the kind of story that blAze has been telling all season. Teams will mostly pick it because they feel like they have an advantage there, not because they've played it so much, but because most teams haven't really played it at all. I'm not blaming the teams for picking the map they feel they have an advantage in (that's what we do as well). Just don't go around throwing statistics without actually discussing what's behind this sudden "popularity".

Personally, I wish next season to be tb3 or with cmt3 added in. In a sense I wouldn't even mind dropping e1m2, but I don't feel we have a good enough replacement as cmt3 is in many ways quite similar to its dm counterpart.

#11 2009-12-20 07:46 by Stev (86.41.138.XXX)

Sure CMT1B hasn't instantly attained incredible play and knowledge in the first season, but who thought that was going to happen? That wasn't a realistic goal at all.

The whole point of this is for the future of diversity and entertainment in qw, and I don't think it was a failure at all.

To put this in perspective, the least popular CMT map this season has been played 26 times! In EQL 8, CMT3 was played a total of 6 times. CMT3 itself has seen an increase of 33 plays over then! And the season isn't over yet, so we'll see a few more played yet.

Isn't that promising? Doesn't that indicate a significant change in attitudes since only a year ago?

tl;dr: More people are playing custom maps than at any time in recent qw history. Why would you oppose an increase in the number of ways to enjoy the game?

#10 2009-12-20 07:24 by Kalma (88.115.44.XXX)

If it was BO5 we would have seen more quality rounds despite kenya :/

#9 2009-12-20 04:03 by fern (85.144.181.XXX)

like i said i will play tb3 happily, the "kenya" maps themselves are valid maps to compete in, just requires learning. if you don't want to, tb3 is going to win out in the end, and i and my team will play and compete.

#8 2009-12-20 03:58 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

100% of the games in cmt1b were total rapes and completely uninteresting to spec. How is that not a valid argument? :) Even the commentators were wishing for "no kenya" in this game.

Pro-kenyas were apparently wishing for somekind of miracle where everyone would suddenly learn new maps, even though everyone else were telling them it's not going to happen.

The end result speaks for itself.

#7 2009-12-20 03:29 by fern (85.144.181.XXX)

the argument doesnt lie in the maps, it lies in people preferring to coast on the knowledge they have attained from playing tb3, if it comes down to it i will play tb3 happily, but don't pretend you have a valid argument for being against custom maps.

<3 qw

#6 2009-12-20 02:02 by randomDude (62.68.187.XXX)

i didnt blame sr either, we all know this can be happen, when the admins decided to add kenyas

#5 2009-12-20 01:37 by mja (217.19.29.XXX)

active players? lol... those njabz play cod only :>

#4 2009-12-20 01:36 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

#3 I guess SR is here to win the league, not to entertain specs. It's not their fault the map pool is what it is. I said it before the league: if we want high quality games, we stick to tb3.

Too bad that I missed the game now that it was finally played and too bad that it looks like we won't be playing with f0m at all in the end since they skipped our groupgame.

#3 2009-12-20 01:05 by randomDude (62.68.187.XXX)

Im sad that they played kenya, cos fom didnt know that map well enough(just like a lot of div1 clan). That game was quite boring, and after it, they gave us a thriller e1m2, wich was MUCH better than the kenya. and they could play a dm2 or dm3 too instead of that cmt map.

#2 2009-12-20 00:58 by deus (88.74.140.XXX)

the clan with the most active players wins it seems. big names alone isn't enough.

#1 2009-12-19 23:28 by lib (90.230.83.XXX)

if someone a year ago had said that krab, zero, mja and murdoc would beat pascal, valla, riker and nabbe, i would've told them to keep off the crack...

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