#1 2009-12-19 23:28 by lib (90.230.83.XXX)

if someone a year ago had said that krab, zero, mja and murdoc would beat pascal, valla, riker and nabbe, i would've told them to keep off the crack...

#2 2009-12-20 00:58 by deus (88.74.140.XXX)

the clan with the most active players wins it seems. big names alone isn't enough.

#3 2009-12-20 01:05 by randomDude (62.68.187.XXX)

Im sad that they played kenya, cos fom didnt know that map well enough(just like a lot of div1 clan). That game was quite boring, and after it, they gave us a thriller e1m2, wich was MUCH better than the kenya. and they could play a dm2 or dm3 too instead of that cmt map.

#4 2009-12-20 01:36 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

#3 I guess SR is here to win the league, not to entertain specs. It's not their fault the map pool is what it is. I said it before the league: if we want high quality games, we stick to tb3.

Too bad that I missed the game now that it was finally played and too bad that it looks like we won't be playing with f0m at all in the end since they skipped our groupgame.

#5 2009-12-20 01:37 by mja (217.19.29.XXX)

active players? lol... those njabz play cod only :>

#6 2009-12-20 02:02 by randomDude (62.68.187.XXX)

i didnt blame sr either, we all know this can be happen, when the admins decided to add kenyas

#7 2009-12-20 03:29 by fern (85.144.181.XXX)

the argument doesnt lie in the maps, it lies in people preferring to coast on the knowledge they have attained from playing tb3, if it comes down to it i will play tb3 happily, but don't pretend you have a valid argument for being against custom maps.

<3 qw

#8 2009-12-20 03:58 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

100% of the games in cmt1b were total rapes and completely uninteresting to spec. How is that not a valid argument? :) Even the commentators were wishing for "no kenya" in this game.

Pro-kenyas were apparently wishing for somekind of miracle where everyone would suddenly learn new maps, even though everyone else were telling them it's not going to happen.

The end result speaks for itself.

#9 2009-12-20 04:03 by fern (85.144.181.XXX)

like i said i will play tb3 happily, the "kenya" maps themselves are valid maps to compete in, just requires learning. if you don't want to, tb3 is going to win out in the end, and i and my team will play and compete.

#10 2009-12-20 07:24 by Kalma (88.115.44.XXX)

If it was BO5 we would have seen more quality rounds despite kenya :/

#11 2009-12-20 07:46 by Stev (86.41.138.XXX)

Sure CMT1B hasn't instantly attained incredible play and knowledge in the first season, but who thought that was going to happen? That wasn't a realistic goal at all.

The whole point of this is for the future of diversity and entertainment in qw, and I don't think it was a failure at all.

To put this in perspective, the least popular CMT map this season has been played 26 times! In EQL 8, CMT3 was played a total of 6 times. CMT3 itself has seen an increase of 33 plays over then! And the season isn't over yet, so we'll see a few more played yet.

Isn't that promising? Doesn't that indicate a significant change in attitudes since only a year ago?

tl;dr: More people are playing custom maps than at any time in recent qw history. Why would you oppose an increase in the number of ways to enjoy the game?

#12 2009-12-20 09:29 by niomic (89.27.30.XXX)

There is no comparison in the level of play in cmt3 vs. cmt1b. The former has been played semi frequently in leagues for many years and has come out as one of the least crappy kenya maps. cmt1b however, has last seen more play like what 4-5 years ago? And even then it wasn't all that great on higher div levels.

I understand there is a slight problem with having only four maps in the pool. But that problem is quite small considering that the only bo5 games are the div finals.

Anyway, I think there will be a lot of _better_ discussion before next season concerning the map pool and I think we, as a scene, needed this season to make things clear.

Stev, when you refer to the numbers, it doesn't really tell a story of a new good map in the pool. It tells exactly the kind of story that blAze has been telling all season. Teams will mostly pick it because they feel like they have an advantage there, not because they've played it so much, but because most teams haven't really played it at all. I'm not blaming the teams for picking the map they feel they have an advantage in (that's what we do as well). Just don't go around throwing statistics without actually discussing what's behind this sudden "popularity".

Personally, I wish next season to be tb3 or with cmt3 added in. In a sense I wouldn't even mind dropping e1m2, but I don't feel we have a good enough replacement as cmt3 is in many ways quite similar to its dm counterpart.

#13 2009-12-20 10:31 by Stev (86.41.138.XXX)

When you say that the only reason the maps have increased popularity this season is because teams pick them to have an advantage against their opponents (which is the only reason a team picks any map in any league) this doesn't explain why teams didn't do it in the past.

6 plays for a map in one whole season is a shameful statistic, but in the following season it achieved over 6 times that. CMT1B has already reached a minimum of 26 plays in its first season, and, unless attitudes totally reverse between now and next season, its popularity can only grow!

By explaining all this unpredecented activity away as teams wanting an easy win, you're reducing growth and exploration to a shameful act of cowardice; an act which apparently didn't exist until this season, despite many custom maps featuring in past leagues.

I think there are as many pessimists as conservatives arguing for a strict, unchanged, (stagnant?) 3-map pool; People who think that it is pointless to try as they see no future.

When you give up on quakeworld and its future, that's when it has no future. When you cater to people who don't play, that's when people stop playing.

#14 2009-12-20 10:59 by Kalma (88.115.44.XXX)

Make a kenya-league that runs in parallel with TB3-EQL. People who have time to prac those maps should have time to play two leagues.

#15 2009-12-20 11:03 by Stev (86.41.138.XXX)

Someone mentioned a rumour to me that NQR will be the next league and will feature only tb3. I see no reason why EQL cannot continue to feature a pool of 5 high-quality maps.

Alternate rebuttal: People who don't have time to prac those maps shouldn't have time to play leagues. :P

#16 2009-12-20 11:18 by willg (85.229.237.XXX)

the reason cmt3 got picked so few times 2 seasons back is that the teams that now picks cmt3, played cmt4 instead. Atleast that is true for my own team.

#17 2009-12-20 11:23 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

Stev, you are arguing a totally different case. Nobody ever said the map wouldn't get played. What was said is that the games in it are not going to be good for a long, long time. And that turned out to be 100% correct. Not one single round played in that map was interesting. I think it's a bit silly to make some 10-year roadmaps with an old dying game. We shoud try to make this season that we are playing now as good as possible. This was probably the last time we saw f0m playing (and maybe tVS too), and instead of getting hot interesting rounds like this e1m2 here, we got boring kenya rapes half of the time.

#18 2009-12-20 11:29 by Hooraytio (83.233.83.XXX)

:)

#19 2009-12-20 12:11 by Kwibus (213.46.205.XXX)

My opinion is cmt1b.. naw dude.
cmt3.. yeh it's fine. I''ve played and specced quite a few good games on it.
It's ofcourse not topnodge teamplay yet, but it can't compete with the hours of playtime tb3 has.

Replacing a tb3 map with cmt3 is blasphemy imo. I wouldn't want to miss any of those maps allthough I'm still utter crap at dm2. I don't care, keep it. It's good.
e1m2 demands such a complete different playstyle then the other maps so it should absolutely stay. I love the map.

#20 2009-12-20 12:15 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

cmt3 may have tighter games but it's still a crappy ffa map with undefendable positions and no tp.

cmt4 is both well known and a good tp map.

#21 2009-12-20 12:47 by Kalma (88.115.44.XXX)

Quick browse through group matches(including playoffs would skew stats obviously):
cmt1b was played 20 times:
- Clan TKs played 5 (25%) of those
- Div 2 saw some close matches
- Div 4 saw only 2 matches (with the most rookies?)
- In 1 match it was picked just to annoy Hooraytio

#22 2009-12-20 13:04 by murdoc (86.80.100.XXX)

zzz again the boring map pool whine.

#23 2009-12-20 13:09 by lib (90.230.83.XXX)

a new map?! this will not stand! it would take literally 30 minutes out of my busy nerdlife to learn!

a bloo bloo bloo

#24 2009-12-20 13:41 by niomic (89.27.30.XXX)

Stev,

The point was that cmt3 is a lot better known, but still not that high level of play. It's a map where only a few clans might feel they actually have a strong advantage. I can't believe people are still spouting bullshit about it taking x amount of time to learn, where x is very small. How is it then that after having played dm3 for over a decade (with notable breaks inbetween), I still feel that I am progressing in the map and so are many other people. The point is that great gameplay comes from everyone knowing the tricks, do's and don'ts etc of a map, and that takes a really long time. I would even argue that a lot of players simply don't have the capacity to learn all of those to a truly high level (I might be one). For a soccer analogy, all the top div players know pretty much what to do in certain situations. The difference comes from truly exceptional players and better played special situations that are practised overandoverandoverandover...

The scene as a whole has done really unbelievable things to keep this game going and I find myself very grateful most of the time to be in such an active scene. Despite this, the arguments over less played maps vs maps that have been played _a lot_ really seems quite polarized to a saddening degree. If the scene as a whole really wants new maps in their biggest leagues, I believe that will happen naturally, or won't, in the same way, naturally. If you call that stagnation, then you're not noticing all the other great progress that is going on all the time in the scene. Maybe I should feel sad that we're not playing dm6 as a 4on4 map anymore, or e2m1? Or that dm6 isn't being played in casual 2on2 at all really these days. Those maps had their time and now they are part of qw history (mostly). But they were never even close to the same kenya level as what we are trying to push with cmt1b.

#25 2009-12-20 13:53 by weirdo (88.113.9.XXX)

Great to see f0m playing with their best line-up! Aaaa but SR took the cmt1b card here and that sucks. Havent got the patience to read all the bs above about cmt1b but to pick that shitty map in the semis is just plain boring and lame.

#26 2009-12-20 13:53 by Hooraytio (83.233.83.XXX)

What i dont get tho, are the ones arguing for taking away e1m2. I think we need a map without ra, lg and pent since this calls for a whole different way of playing the game.

Also, in order to make most ppl happy i still would like to use the opt-in system (some stick to tb3 and some go with more maps) again since i think it worked really well during the last nqr season. Yeah it might be flawed (the tb3 clans do not have to adapt to new maps and can prac more tb3 yadayada) and whatnot but does it really matter?

#27 2009-12-20 13:55 by randomDude (62.68.187.XXX)

stev, u suck in div 3, because you are a div4 on tb3 (despite of u play all day), the only map you are a kind of usefull, is ctm1b, what noone really knows. Thats why you fight on forums for ctm1b, because you wanna win....

#28 2009-12-20 13:59 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

"I think we need a map without ra, lg and pent since this calls for a whole different way of playing the game."

Let's also take away ya, quad, rl, sng and ssg, because that too calls for a whole different way of playing the game. Would't quake be most interesting with no armors, wpns and powerups at all? Just one big boomstick flood. :)

#29 2009-12-20 14:12 by Hooraytio (83.233.83.XXX)

i just dont think every item is needed on every map...

#30 2009-12-20 14:27 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

e1m2 is lacking too much, it's a boring combination of sg-flood and +back-cs.

dm2 doesn't have pent, ring or lg, but at least it compensates it a bit by having more ras and rls to keep it interesting.

#31 2009-12-20 14:37 by Hooraytio (83.233.83.XXX)

a map does not have to compensate the lack of lg, pent and ring imo. it just makes it interesting in another way...

we can argue this forever, we just like different types of maps :)

#32 2009-12-20 15:26 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

Well, I guess you answer to your own question then. Ppl argue for taking away e1m2, because they think it's a boring map. I just gave the reasonings why I personally think it's boring. For me items are an essential part of the game and taking them away is like taking away bunnyhopping.

#33 2009-12-20 15:37 by nitram (83.226.185.XXX)

You can argue forever about the current map pool, although this season proved to be one of the more exciting seasons I've taken part in. Too bad the admins couldn't build on that same tension and make playoffs BO5 as they should have been. Because using the full map pool in a BO3 playoff is nothing more than a joke and made the semis much less exciting.

Although all in all I'm pleased we played most of our games and got this far.

GGs SR.

#34 2009-12-20 15:53 by ddk (86.146.98.XXX)

blaze,

of course if people don't play the map the quality of the games will be poor - that is quite obvious no?

this argument that people took 10 years to learn tb3, well, it's more about people taking 10 years to learn how to play qw 4on4. the skill and knowledge is transferable, clans will not have to put as much effort at all into new maps so long as those maps are good maps which enables teams to be competitive on them.

i've played quakeworld for 3 months now and i feel i've got a solid understanding of all 5 maps and the dynamics of 4on4. of course a lot more playing has to be done for me to catch up on the nuances of the game which only get learned through playing, but my point is, i'm not a 4on4 newbie, i've been playing the mode in q3 since 2003 and i've been in many top teams before. it made sense to me very quickly, and all of you guys who know how to play already will find that after 5 pracs you will know the map, after 10 pracs how to play it will be obvious, after 20-30 pracs your routines will be developed. you already know how to play quakeworld in 4on4. the maps add different dynamics for which you can then apply your current knowledge of 4on4 onto, allowing innovation, new tactics, players who are actually genuinely more talented will shine through more because all the players around them haven't closed the gap through grind.

long story short, the quality of play will get better MUCH quicker than you think. tb3 has history, and that is why it is easy to refer to.

it took 10 years to learn QW 4on4, not tb3.

#35 2009-12-20 17:05 by razor (83.250.97.XXX)

this same discussion has been discussed billions times before.. some people will like new maps.. some wont...
i agree with blaze.. i would prefer tb3 to get exciting and competetive games.. (next season when i WILL play ;) )

it will take YEARS to make custom maps as competetive as tb3.. and that people actually plays the maps.. you rarely see people play those maps in mixes etc... just in the officials and then they go back to mix on dm3

to me i dont think quake need more maps.. i feel tb3 brings enough variety in gameplay... u dont see football players whine about that there is only one type of football field either ;) the FUN lies in other things.. even if it is the same old maps..

new maps can be fun for the FUN of it thou.. i like trying and learning new maps

but i think it was good when we had a separate tournament (CMT?) with custom maps.

#36 2009-12-20 17:21 by razor (83.250.97.XXX)

i personally would very much like the idea of that you can play ANY map at all.. as long as both clans agree.. if u wanna play e2m7.. then go ahead!
then we will have ALOT of maps.. alot of variety.. and we will never have games where one clan is alot better then the other on that map cause both have agreed on playing it :) at least in the groupgames... then oldschool clans can play tb3 in playoff if they like. And the clans they are facing would prolly not be so sad about TB3 either after a groupstage with 20 different maps ? ;)
so we get both variety and competetive! :)

#37 2009-12-20 17:25 by razor (83.250.97.XXX)

i must also say btw that the bo3 instead of bo5 when it is SEMI-final!! and when the map-pool is 5.. its just not logical in any way...
the admin who decided that needed to go to sleep early that night or what??

#38 2009-12-20 17:32 by deus (88.74.140.XXX)

ah thanks for that post #34.

i\'m really opposed to that \'argument\' \"qw is old and dying, let it be old and dying\".

#39 2009-12-20 17:33 by deus (88.74.140.XXX)

gg '? ""

#40 2009-12-20 18:13 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

ddk,

I still think pro-kenya camp is downplaying the amount of time it takes to develop div1 gameplay in a map a great deal. Just look back and reflect this one season that is now almost finished. During one whole season only baby steps in that map were taken. A handful of clans learned some basics and owned those who didn't. The games in the map are as uninteresting after this season as they were before it.

Of course it all comes down to how much the map is played, but you guys are not realistic about it. I'm thinking this in the terms of how much it is realistically going to get played.

I can't help the feeling that you guys simply refuse to see the truth here. Just look at _every_ round in div1 that was played in cmt1b for gods sake... You can't possibly convince me that you'd rather spectate that than tight tb3 rounds. In this game, f0m vs SR, which round was a better spectator experience to you, ddk?

#41 2009-12-20 18:24 by dib (83.132.167.XXX)

i skip all this reading just to say that horraytio is the mr drama in person :D

#42 2009-12-20 18:29 by randomDude (62.68.187.XXX)

Lets create a CTM 4on4 leagues, and if they succes, then add the best ctm map to te eql pool. This will take a lot of time, before all play those maps, like the tb3.

#43 2009-12-20 18:48 by JohnNy_cz (77.48.143.XXX)

blAze: cmt1b sucked for spectators because FOM clearly didn't bother to prac that map. Maybe I don't speak for all the spectators, but I dare to say most of them are not interested in seeing clans who only dig up QW just because there's EQL now, so "let's try to revive skills we had years back". They want the great experience, but they want a fresh skill, not some semi-rusty "oh I just turned that game on after months/years, hello".

#44 2009-12-20 19:00 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

JohnNy_cz: Oh yeah? I thought the general consensus was that rusty or not, f0m - SR was one of the most anticipated games of the whole season? At least I would have loved to see them battle it out in tb3. I dare to say you are quite wrong in what most specs are interested in. From commentators to spectators, what I heard was "no kenya please".

#45 2009-12-20 19:10 by JohnNy_cz (77.48.143.XXX)

Well if Xantom the another kenya hater was doing the commentary... Anyway, whoever it was, it's kinda unprofessional to spoil a game by saying that, as a commentator you should try to make it as interesting as possible.

#46 2009-12-20 19:14 by Kalma (88.115.44.XXX)

I have to disagree a little JohnNy_cz.

I think it's good thing that one can stay part of the scene with little activity. If it was required to play several times a week to keep up with things, many old players would have quit and never return. But with the "stagnation" one can happily play once a week, or even take a long break and return with ease.

And it would be great to see rusty Dag, Paradox et all back. :)

Maybe TVS comeback wouldn't have happened if map pool was dm3, cmt3, cmt1b? :)

#47 2009-12-20 19:19 by ddk (86.146.98.XXX)

blaze:

of course the tb3 is better to spectate and i would prefer to watch that with the div1 teams, but i suppose the deal here is simple.

qw 4on4 can just continue on as it is going with tb3 only, but where will that lead? sure it's great to see the division 1 teams battling it out on those maps as they are extremely comfortable there. but equally, it's nothing new at all. as it is just the same thing as previous years has seen. with two new maps added to the pool, if all the clans actually knew them, (a lot of teams didn't even bother to play cmt1b btw) it would become more interesting to spectate. but this behaviour where no teams even bother to play 10ish games on the map which is enough to be on a similar level to a team who has played 30games there. it isn't an argument that the gameplay of the customs is bad and unholy in comparison to tb3, in a couple seasons if customs are stuck with we could see some NEW and great stuff from teams who actually learn the maps.

it's about having something NEW in the game, it seems like many old players lost interest and moved to other games because it was the same old with qw. new maps should actually make things more competitive and exciting...except in this community they don't because no-one wants to go outside their comfort zones to bother with them.

it's easy to mix dm3 100x in a row and cmt1b only 1x because people don't yet know how to play cmt1b yet because 1. they haven't bothered and 2. division 1 and 2 teams aren't setting a standard of play for them to follow or copy. everyone knows how to play dm3, i mean, given 10 years and a wealth of demos, np.

#48 2009-12-20 19:26 by Stev (86.41.138.XXX)

I agree with razor. Bo3 = bg.

#49 2009-12-20 19:28 by fern (85.144.181.XXX)

#40 blaze, you're telling me how long it takes to develop div1 gameplay etc, while that completely hinges on the div1 teams actually actively playing on it, which isn't happening.

again, the "truth" is what you said, people won't play it, but that makes the arguments that surround this all irrelevant.

you're right i'd rather spectate div1 games on the maps they know, but it's not a strong enough argument against the maps they refuse to play.

i'll play tb3 like i said, i just want qw to be the best it can be, and sticking to single player maps that you have to press buttons to even properly start playing (e1m2, did yee notice?) just doesn't cut it for me, it's complete luck that map is as good as it is.

#50 2009-12-20 19:28 by deus (88.74.140.XXX)

Kalma: don't you care that with that attitude you're blocking new players from entering qw? don't you realize that in order to stay alive a game and a scene has to evolve?

you can't have a league with only 2 or 3 old clans that decide to pick up quake once every full moon, you need new players and changing lineups even in the old clans to keep them competetive.

it's not fOm with the big names that's the clan that comes close to tVS this season, it's slackers with a lineup that wouldn't have been considered div 1 not so long ago. if you take away the fresh blood out of a scene you end up with a div1 consisting of tvs and fom in their current shape. now that's a *broken* division/scene.

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