#80 2009-12-25 15:33 by Stev (213.94.239.XXX)

Apologies, RAMorYan. I took a stab in the dark and missed. :)

#79 2009-12-25 13:56 by RAMorYan (89.132.32.XXX)

Stev, I don't know who is that randomDude.
Believe me he is not from my clan (clan cube squad).
Some of us are really new, but many of us playing qw for 10 years.
We want to say nothing about this topic.
Don't blame my clan, please.

#78 2009-12-22 18:51 by Stev (86.41.138.XXX)

Anyone who plays more than 2 maps a week and says "I don't have time to learn one new map" is either full of shit, or is severely underestimating himself.

You won't have it at dm3 standard, it makes up 80% of all games and probably 90% of all mixes (I once played 27 consecutive ones over a few days), but you can still learn the layout enough to know how to play. No one's asking you to play Unreal Tournament for 1/5 of the season; It's still quakeworld and everything you learned in the last 13 years still applies.

#77 2009-12-22 16:38 by dOnut (81.224.254.XXX)

I don't think it would be a bad idea to have different map pools in different divs, and also to decide these pools by 1 vote / player. I also agree with most of Blazes comments.

Something that I would like to add to the discussion is that I, whom doesn't have so much time to play qw, like to play maps I know (tb3) when I have the time to play some. These are also the maps I like to spectate because I know the tactics and where the guy is running who I'm spectating.Close games is my number one priority when spectating (how fun is it to see tVS or some other clan rape?) and almost equally important is that I know the maps and tactics myself, the actual map played is not so important for me as long as the previous criteria's are fulfilled. Now when I know tb3 I wouldn't settle for less, but I would probably be equally happy to only spectate dm3 if that was the only map I knew.

I _think_ time is a issue for many players, many just don't have time to practice and learn new maps good. I'm not saying that these maps are bad, they would probably be very fun when learned and I would probably be willing to learn them if I had the time and motivation. But as I said earlier I don't have time to play a lot so when I play I want to play maps I enjoy playing for the moment. And everyone like close games, Maybe this is _one_ of the reason why dm3 is played 99% of all mixes because most of the players know this map?

I _believe_ that most new players enter the lower divs, and most players that drop are from the higher divs. So if lower divs start introducing new maps, if they want, I guess these new maps would follow them up to higher divs when they start getting better. The people liking old maps (tb3) will probably get less and less and this should thus force the new maps in higher divs when "new players" > "old players". I don't thing the correct way of introducing new maps is to force them without a majority agreement, they should be introduced naturally.

Hope my very valuable post is understandable but to clarify: Don't force new maps into divs, I DONT HAVE TIME TO LEARN THEM meaning that I will probably drop out completely if there are to much new maps. Maybe me dropping out isn't that big of a deal but maybe the _majority_ of the players in some divs thing the same. When the majority wants new maps include them, because then my dropping wont impact the scene as much.

Over and out!
dOnut

#76 2009-12-22 10:30 by JohnNy_cz (77.48.143.XXX)

It's not that simple. They just DON'T KNOW what to practice until the season is started (clans are placed) and the factor you talked about (players who are the quickest to adjust to new conditions) becomes very significant - none of us want that to happen.

As you talked under my blog - "what's best for league" vs. "what's best for players winning", imo the league should let the players nominate 6-7 maps for the next season at the end of the season and then let the participating players in the following season pick their most favorite 5 maps when signing up.

The point is: __You should know what you are signing up for__

#75 2009-12-22 01:40 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

Stev,

If they get raped in tb3, then they can't win anything in div1 anyway. That's exactly why I said it's a non issue. If a team can compete in tb3, then they can win games and then, and only then, does their vote matter in the div they play.

#74 2009-12-22 00:56 by junkass (83.245.172.XXX)

Omg, who cares about f0m or tVS or div1 or even EQL... We have a lovely drama going on here. That's all that matters! \o/

#73 2009-12-21 21:13 by Stev (86.41.138.XXX)

Obviously everyone would prefer if people just did what they wanted all the time, but 1 vote per person is by far the next best alternative. :)

But I don't agree with different maps in each div. What happens if, for example div2 has 5 maps, a div2 clan gets promoted to div1, but div1 doesn't have 5 maps and they get raped because their 2 strongest maps are gone? It makes it that much harder to create new div1 talent.

Consistency is better. Otherwise the complaints about not having time to learn maps become somewhat valid.

#72 2009-12-21 20:33 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

I'd rather give each registered player one vote, because I don't want to fight about it inside the team and it's at least as fair. The problem is that with the results of the previous questionable polls, the opposition would agree to a new vote only over their dead bodies. :)

#71 2009-12-21 19:05 by mawe (89.160.31.XXX)

I reckon it's probably been said in other posts but; it shouldnt be that hard to just let each team in each division vote. Then we will clearly see what each division (the PLAYERS) want. If players in one team should be fighting over what to choose, they can vote inside the team.

To me this is probably the only fair way, plus we really get to see what the players want.

#70 2009-12-21 14:31 by Hooraytio (83.233.83.XXX)

:(

i think it was a human mistake on someones part

#69 2009-12-21 14:31 by rco (74.63.75.XXX)

siemka, what happened to 'bo5'?
i'm assuming it's all horatio's fault :{

#68 2009-12-21 13:45 by JohnNy_cz (77.48.143.XXX)

During the 2on2 tournament yesterday, one of the specs (actually a player who has been around for years) commented with \"wow, never seen that [trick] before\". I wonder when was the last time I said that when speccing a 4on4 TB3 game... Yeah, Milton did something in e1m2 recently which surprised me a little, but that was after long long time and the rest of the scene is I think just trying to follow properly what everyone has seen dozens of times.
Spare me with tennis, I am talking about my QuakeWorld spectator experience here.

#67 2009-12-21 03:11 by Stev (86.41.138.XXX)

Silly me forgot to mention that I was responding to randomTroll.

#66 2009-12-21 02:17 by Stev (86.41.138.XXX)

I have not insulted anyone because they dislike cmt1b. Unlike you, I don't think differing opinions on a map is grounds for attacking someone. I respect reasoned opinions and arguments beyond "LOLOL UR TEEM SUX SO U PIK KENYA" from noname imbeciles.

The only person here I have insulted here is you. Your combination of poor english skills, lies, insults, cowardice, misinformation and further lies lead me to believe that you are either a huge dick or a complete moron. From now on I will assume both.

#65 2009-12-21 02:05 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

HangTime,

That might be otherwise valid point, but what happens in div1 doesn't really concern any newcomers beyond creating interesting events to spectate.

I think top teams are not bored, on the contrary, even f0m is trying hard to play games even though it's clearly very difficult for them.

There is absolutely no reason why newcomers couldn't have whatever rules you think is best for them in the lower divs while keeping div1 for high quality games.

As long as these new players/teams can not challenge div1 on any map at any level, there is no reason why we couldn't have different rules for them.

We have 3 full divisions for mediocre gaming for those who are into that. If for nothing else, then for diversity why not have one div for something else?

#64 2009-12-21 02:05 by fern (85.144.181.XXX)

the great kenya conspiracy :-OooOooOooo

#63 2009-12-21 01:53 by randomDude (62.68.171.XXX)

to stev: Yes you were right, not all of your clan members try to defending kenya here, just 3 of you. I wont argue with you, cos you are an arrogant fuck, saying the others eat dick/eat horsedick who doesnt like ctm1b, and thats really childish. I copied that link to prove ur team played ctm1b mostly, and it must be a coincidence that 3 of you try to defend this map. I didnt say anything wrong to your clan, they are good players on other maps too, only you are an asshole to take this so seriously. Who said that dm3 or e1m2 is a shit kenya? I dont need a real nick to this low level argument with you. Btw i have nothing to do with ccs.

#62 2009-12-21 01:13 by fern (85.144.181.XXX)

yea i'm not arguing against the tb3 maps, i'm arguing for those 2 extra ones ;p

i like em all except for dm2 :| (cause i suck monkey cock you see)

#61 2009-12-21 00:59 by HangTime (87.127.194.XXX)

@fern
"sticking to single player maps that you have to press buttons to even properly start playing (e1m2, did yee notice?) just doesn't cut it for me, it's complete luck that map is as good as it is."

Whether it's by luck is pretty much irrelevant; it's still a great map for 4v4. None of the maps that shipped with Quake were designed with modern 4v4 gameplay in mind.

In terms of pressing the buttons at the start, that's just part of the game! Without that, we wouldn't see stuff like the trick jump to steal mega from first rl, or a little pause before the first quad can be taken.

#60 2009-12-21 00:47 by Hangtime (87.127.194.XXX)

@blAze
"I think it's a bit silly to make some 10-year roadmaps with an old dying game. We shoud try to make this season that we are playing now as good as possible. This was probably the last time we saw f0m playing (and maybe tVS too)"

Some might argue that if top clans are leaving that is even more reason why we should be thinking long-term rather than short-term gratification. It's not like we haven't seen many top matches on tb3 in the past from Villains/Smackdown/NQR/EQL.

Don't get me wrong I am traditionally very pro-tb3 (I even coined the phrase 'tb3' some years ago when commenting on one of Link's epic posts about custom maps!) for top level play. But if truth be told if I look at this season as a spectator on the big maps I don't think there is anything there really that makes me think "wow this sure are the goodest season ever!".

Sure tVS have some very slick play and maybe it is more refined as QW has ever been but I remember the days of LA,SR,tVS,FS,CMF,HF etc with many competitive games on tb3. I'm not saying I'm bored of seeing those type of games but heck if these top teams have got bored of playing it any more why not take the opportunity to welcome some diversity into the game.

#59 2009-12-21 00:13 by Stev (86.41.138.XXX)

randomDude, come out from behind your fakenick if you're going to be throwing insults and disparaging remarks around about my entire fucking team. My guess is that you're one of the extremely new players from ccs since none of the established hungarian players I know and respect would engage in such cowardly behaviour.

TKs pick cmt1b because we like the map (I would add that it wasn't a requirement of entry to the clan, so praccing it allowed us to explore and enjoy it). We also didn't lose any dm3s, cmt3s or e1m2s. Should those be removed as kenya shit too? Fucking moron.

#58 2009-12-20 23:16 by deus (88.74.140.XXX)

Kalma if that's what you think it is, i'm glad i understand at least where we disagree. i've seen games 'die out' before and i believe that quake dm is slowly but surely losing it's playerbase if it continues without doing changes.

#57 2009-12-20 22:06 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

I don\'t understand how new players and new maps are related to each other at all, besides both having the word new. It\'s like saying that unless new tennis court surfaces are introduced, new players are blocked from starting to play tennis. :E

#56 2009-12-20 21:59 by Kalma (88.115.44.XXX)

deus: I was new player about 5 years ago. Pretty much exactly same discussion was going on then. And I wanted tb5 then (e2m2!) :) I couldn\'t understand how the game could thrive with so few maps. But I was wrong.

I think you are underestimating how many old players and clans there are, how long they can last.

#55 2009-12-20 20:53 by razor (83.250.97.XXX)

who is saying adding 2 maps is to evolve? would the difference in the community really be so big if all clans/players knew these 5 maps perfectly? :)
it would prolly look the same except then we would argue if it were 5 maps or 7 maps...
my opinion is still = if it aint broken it doesnt need to be fixed.
its a matter of opinion.. some will say 3 is enough.. others want more maps to play on... you cant say that keeping 3 maps is the reason why the community looks the way it does.
It needs sponsors and alot of big prestigious tournaments and prize money and some sort of marketing to the casual/random gamers who want to pick up a game and play.
stuff like THAT is needed.. 5 maps instead of 3 wont make a difference im pretty sure of..

having votes in each division of what maps should be in their division is the best option in my opinion..

#54 2009-12-20 20:37 by randomDude (62.68.171.XXX)

Fern, Stev, ddk from this team: http://eql.quakeworld.nu/eql10/teams/6 i can see why you want to force the other clans to play that crap ctm1b. So lets TkS and deus decide the fate of qw. With this attitude, qw would loose players only. Anyawy what kind of new players do you want with the new maps? a 15 year old kid from wow? they wont come, and thats good :)There is a bigger chance to that Inactive players will play once again. And kenya is not the most inspirational thing to them.

#53 2009-12-20 19:58 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

"it's about having something NEW in the game"

Well, actually, by the time playing those maps is starting to get interesting, they have not been NEW in a long, long time. They are new now, when nobody knows them and everything sucks. By the time watching a game in these maps is as interesting as it is in tb3, they are not new maps, they are just another map from the pool. Ppl are too fixated on this map issue. They are just maps, they dont bring anything new and interesting. New maps can break this game as we see, but they will never make the game. Interesting games are made of talent and years of experience, not maps.

#52 2009-12-20 19:44 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

JohnNy_cz,

I don\'t think it was XantoM. For once I agree with you, the commentators should try to save what can be saved. Still, I bet it reflected what many spectators felt.

#51 2009-12-20 19:39 by JohnNy_cz (77.48.143.XXX)

Kalma: Agree, I think FOM got what they deserved - 3rd/4rd place. I'm not for replacing TB3 to rule such clans completely out.

#50 2009-12-20 19:28 by deus (88.74.140.XXX)

Kalma: don't you care that with that attitude you're blocking new players from entering qw? don't you realize that in order to stay alive a game and a scene has to evolve?

you can't have a league with only 2 or 3 old clans that decide to pick up quake once every full moon, you need new players and changing lineups even in the old clans to keep them competetive.

it's not fOm with the big names that's the clan that comes close to tVS this season, it's slackers with a lineup that wouldn't have been considered div 1 not so long ago. if you take away the fresh blood out of a scene you end up with a div1 consisting of tvs and fom in their current shape. now that's a *broken* division/scene.

#49 2009-12-20 19:28 by fern (85.144.181.XXX)

#40 blaze, you're telling me how long it takes to develop div1 gameplay etc, while that completely hinges on the div1 teams actually actively playing on it, which isn't happening.

again, the "truth" is what you said, people won't play it, but that makes the arguments that surround this all irrelevant.

you're right i'd rather spectate div1 games on the maps they know, but it's not a strong enough argument against the maps they refuse to play.

i'll play tb3 like i said, i just want qw to be the best it can be, and sticking to single player maps that you have to press buttons to even properly start playing (e1m2, did yee notice?) just doesn't cut it for me, it's complete luck that map is as good as it is.

#48 2009-12-20 19:26 by Stev (86.41.138.XXX)

I agree with razor. Bo3 = bg.

#47 2009-12-20 19:19 by ddk (86.146.98.XXX)

blaze:

of course the tb3 is better to spectate and i would prefer to watch that with the div1 teams, but i suppose the deal here is simple.

qw 4on4 can just continue on as it is going with tb3 only, but where will that lead? sure it's great to see the division 1 teams battling it out on those maps as they are extremely comfortable there. but equally, it's nothing new at all. as it is just the same thing as previous years has seen. with two new maps added to the pool, if all the clans actually knew them, (a lot of teams didn't even bother to play cmt1b btw) it would become more interesting to spectate. but this behaviour where no teams even bother to play 10ish games on the map which is enough to be on a similar level to a team who has played 30games there. it isn't an argument that the gameplay of the customs is bad and unholy in comparison to tb3, in a couple seasons if customs are stuck with we could see some NEW and great stuff from teams who actually learn the maps.

it's about having something NEW in the game, it seems like many old players lost interest and moved to other games because it was the same old with qw. new maps should actually make things more competitive and exciting...except in this community they don't because no-one wants to go outside their comfort zones to bother with them.

it's easy to mix dm3 100x in a row and cmt1b only 1x because people don't yet know how to play cmt1b yet because 1. they haven't bothered and 2. division 1 and 2 teams aren't setting a standard of play for them to follow or copy. everyone knows how to play dm3, i mean, given 10 years and a wealth of demos, np.

#46 2009-12-20 19:14 by Kalma (88.115.44.XXX)

I have to disagree a little JohnNy_cz.

I think it's good thing that one can stay part of the scene with little activity. If it was required to play several times a week to keep up with things, many old players would have quit and never return. But with the "stagnation" one can happily play once a week, or even take a long break and return with ease.

And it would be great to see rusty Dag, Paradox et all back. :)

Maybe TVS comeback wouldn't have happened if map pool was dm3, cmt3, cmt1b? :)

#45 2009-12-20 19:10 by JohnNy_cz (77.48.143.XXX)

Well if Xantom the another kenya hater was doing the commentary... Anyway, whoever it was, it's kinda unprofessional to spoil a game by saying that, as a commentator you should try to make it as interesting as possible.

#44 2009-12-20 19:00 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

JohnNy_cz: Oh yeah? I thought the general consensus was that rusty or not, f0m - SR was one of the most anticipated games of the whole season? At least I would have loved to see them battle it out in tb3. I dare to say you are quite wrong in what most specs are interested in. From commentators to spectators, what I heard was "no kenya please".

#43 2009-12-20 18:48 by JohnNy_cz (77.48.143.XXX)

blAze: cmt1b sucked for spectators because FOM clearly didn't bother to prac that map. Maybe I don't speak for all the spectators, but I dare to say most of them are not interested in seeing clans who only dig up QW just because there's EQL now, so "let's try to revive skills we had years back". They want the great experience, but they want a fresh skill, not some semi-rusty "oh I just turned that game on after months/years, hello".

#42 2009-12-20 18:29 by randomDude (62.68.187.XXX)

Lets create a CTM 4on4 leagues, and if they succes, then add the best ctm map to te eql pool. This will take a lot of time, before all play those maps, like the tb3.

#41 2009-12-20 18:24 by dib (83.132.167.XXX)

i skip all this reading just to say that horraytio is the mr drama in person :D

#40 2009-12-20 18:13 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

ddk,

I still think pro-kenya camp is downplaying the amount of time it takes to develop div1 gameplay in a map a great deal. Just look back and reflect this one season that is now almost finished. During one whole season only baby steps in that map were taken. A handful of clans learned some basics and owned those who didn't. The games in the map are as uninteresting after this season as they were before it.

Of course it all comes down to how much the map is played, but you guys are not realistic about it. I'm thinking this in the terms of how much it is realistically going to get played.

I can't help the feeling that you guys simply refuse to see the truth here. Just look at _every_ round in div1 that was played in cmt1b for gods sake... You can't possibly convince me that you'd rather spectate that than tight tb3 rounds. In this game, f0m vs SR, which round was a better spectator experience to you, ddk?

#39 2009-12-20 17:33 by deus (88.74.140.XXX)

gg '? ""

#38 2009-12-20 17:32 by deus (88.74.140.XXX)

ah thanks for that post #34.

i\'m really opposed to that \'argument\' \"qw is old and dying, let it be old and dying\".

#37 2009-12-20 17:25 by razor (83.250.97.XXX)

i must also say btw that the bo3 instead of bo5 when it is SEMI-final!! and when the map-pool is 5.. its just not logical in any way...
the admin who decided that needed to go to sleep early that night or what??

#36 2009-12-20 17:21 by razor (83.250.97.XXX)

i personally would very much like the idea of that you can play ANY map at all.. as long as both clans agree.. if u wanna play e2m7.. then go ahead!
then we will have ALOT of maps.. alot of variety.. and we will never have games where one clan is alot better then the other on that map cause both have agreed on playing it :) at least in the groupgames... then oldschool clans can play tb3 in playoff if they like. And the clans they are facing would prolly not be so sad about TB3 either after a groupstage with 20 different maps ? ;)
so we get both variety and competetive! :)

#35 2009-12-20 17:05 by razor (83.250.97.XXX)

this same discussion has been discussed billions times before.. some people will like new maps.. some wont...
i agree with blaze.. i would prefer tb3 to get exciting and competetive games.. (next season when i WILL play ;) )

it will take YEARS to make custom maps as competetive as tb3.. and that people actually plays the maps.. you rarely see people play those maps in mixes etc... just in the officials and then they go back to mix on dm3

to me i dont think quake need more maps.. i feel tb3 brings enough variety in gameplay... u dont see football players whine about that there is only one type of football field either ;) the FUN lies in other things.. even if it is the same old maps..

new maps can be fun for the FUN of it thou.. i like trying and learning new maps

but i think it was good when we had a separate tournament (CMT?) with custom maps.

#34 2009-12-20 15:53 by ddk (86.146.98.XXX)

blaze,

of course if people don't play the map the quality of the games will be poor - that is quite obvious no?

this argument that people took 10 years to learn tb3, well, it's more about people taking 10 years to learn how to play qw 4on4. the skill and knowledge is transferable, clans will not have to put as much effort at all into new maps so long as those maps are good maps which enables teams to be competitive on them.

i've played quakeworld for 3 months now and i feel i've got a solid understanding of all 5 maps and the dynamics of 4on4. of course a lot more playing has to be done for me to catch up on the nuances of the game which only get learned through playing, but my point is, i'm not a 4on4 newbie, i've been playing the mode in q3 since 2003 and i've been in many top teams before. it made sense to me very quickly, and all of you guys who know how to play already will find that after 5 pracs you will know the map, after 10 pracs how to play it will be obvious, after 20-30 pracs your routines will be developed. you already know how to play quakeworld in 4on4. the maps add different dynamics for which you can then apply your current knowledge of 4on4 onto, allowing innovation, new tactics, players who are actually genuinely more talented will shine through more because all the players around them haven't closed the gap through grind.

long story short, the quality of play will get better MUCH quicker than you think. tb3 has history, and that is why it is easy to refer to.

it took 10 years to learn QW 4on4, not tb3.

#33 2009-12-20 15:37 by nitram (83.226.185.XXX)

You can argue forever about the current map pool, although this season proved to be one of the more exciting seasons I've taken part in. Too bad the admins couldn't build on that same tension and make playoffs BO5 as they should have been. Because using the full map pool in a BO3 playoff is nothing more than a joke and made the semis much less exciting.

Although all in all I'm pleased we played most of our games and got this far.

GGs SR.

#32 2009-12-20 15:26 by blAze (94.237.84.XXX)

Well, I guess you answer to your own question then. Ppl argue for taking away e1m2, because they think it's a boring map. I just gave the reasonings why I personally think it's boring. For me items are an essential part of the game and taking them away is like taking away bunnyhopping.

#31 2009-12-20 14:37 by Hooraytio (83.233.83.XXX)

a map does not have to compensate the lack of lg, pent and ring imo. it just makes it interesting in another way...

we can argue this forever, we just like different types of maps :)

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