you can't guarantee it no, no one can. but you can do all in your power that your team has enough players that can play those days.
And as I said, you are not alone. Most clans would probably want to play on Sundays or other attractive days. But what do you do if 2 teams have to select only 3 days, and none of them chose the same day?

But the people demand flexibility, so that's how you can do it. And if you have to give WO because you don't have players then so be it. Get more players or change priorities. It's not a 5 hour project everytime.. it's 1-1½ hour max, often less.

And as fifi explained before, if you schedule way in advance, there is much higher likelihood that ppl will show up for the game.

Now the auto scheduler is being totally ignored because some teams don't wanna play in start of season and give the usual excuse "well it's not a rule, you can't tell us when to play, fuck off.. we play when WE want".

My experience is that it is very hard to get the players to commit to certain days every week. I cant say for sure that chosen can play every tuesday, thursday and sunday for example. I have to check each week which days my players can play.

I think I suggested it before, but here goes again. Just because we are a small community does not mean we need all this flexibility for months. EQL Pro ran fine without problems with set schedules every Sunday.

And if you want flexibility for a longer season and more teams like EQL, demand 4 days from each team that they can play, so the auto-scheduler on EQL site can always find a suitable date. This is just to ensure that there should be at least 1 day pr week all teams can play each other. So if a team can't play here, and opponents don't want to reschedule there WILL be a WO. IMO it's a necessary evil to ensure consistency and activity. Besides, in most cases we want to get the games played, and if there are genuine problems getting a game played on a certain date, teams seem to be pretty reasonable and willing to help with a reschedule.

In reality, most teams would want to play on Sundays anyway, and there would probably be more than 1 day per week suitable for both teams. Then there are no donkey delays from teams who want to wait with their "important" games until end of season, on the off chance they are not in better shape.

Couple that with a new point system that has already been suggested here and we might see a more consistent season where we have activity from all teams whole season and not only 3/6 weeks.

This also would make coverage easier as we most likely would see more scheduled games in advance and more consistent rankings so we don't have one team with 8 games played and another with 2.

This would avoid this seasons problems where a lot of changes are made even AFTER the season ended cause soo many matches has to be decided either in catchup days or by WO's/voided/removed teams.

No problem, ill just spec at Kim Jong Il's place. He has 3 and ive got 2!

Yeah i liked the eql pro schedule too. Only problem is that you need 5 computers to be able to spec all the games.

Just use the EQL PRO schedule, super sunday every week was perfect and I don't think any clans had issues with the schedule.

that way we can also have statistics of how active everyone have been, and how many available times they have put up :)

ye it's an exellent idea, you could just go in and sign your clan up for a couple of set times that you know you can play, and other clans can go in and fill in those spots..

When you enter a tournament you accept the rules. Whining about point system after the tournament is played is stupid, especially when every team gets the point based on the same point system, maybe you should lose more games if you think that'll help you to get into playoffs.

Admins make their decisions based on their sense of justice. If some clans failed to play their games during the regural season it's common principle that there might be extra days to play remaining games, especially in DIV1, if you want to play your games play them during the season or whine enough to admins to let you play them afterwards.

If you think rules should be changed be active between seasons and make proposals how to improve ie. point system.

Or ask if you could be an admin next seasons, I think EQL would need more ACTIVE admins atm.

Anyway, I'd love to have some kind of calendar in EQL-site where you could see your opponents timetable and arrange matches. This feature has been requested by many players and I really hope we would see that happening.

Sounds good Hooraytio, hope we will see that point system next season 8)

I think this suggestion made earlier by several ppl is good:

2-0=4p
2-1=4p
1-2=2p
0-2=1p

A win is a win and should earn you 4p no matter if its 2-0 or 2-1 imo. Im not into awarding only 3p because you lost a map. You still won the match.

I wouldnt mind playing vs osams twice in the same night!

And on the points-per-map vs points-per-match issue:
If we aren't interested in "matches" during the regular season, then why do we bother with decider maps?

If people feel that map wins are more important during the regular season, then games should just be made up of two rounds (one map pick each) and have them end 1-1 if necessary.

Personally I like the "match" feel of things and I approach every game that we play as a match, of which maps are a component part. If we lose 2-1, I don't go away thinking "yeah, we won a map and lost two", I think "damn, we lost the match".

I don't understand the point of the "you can't play the same clan twice in one day" rule in the first place. It seems like an unnecessary barrier to activity just for the sake of spreading games out.

niomic: well do you think it was a bad decision to grant couple of extra days to get games played? or an exception 1 time to play 2 games the same day?

or is it just the principal of breaking rules? you sound like judge dredd or someone :)

in this small community we need exceptions like this if it's for something good, and thats why it usual also says in the rules that admins have final word and can change stuff if necessary.. so technically they didnt break any rule :)

I can understand you feel ripped off the playoff spot though, I agree the point system might need 4 points for a win instead.

And I certainly agree that it is better to be dropped out of the playoffs by actual games taking place, but you do understand that in a sense, we already were in the playoffs, only to get knocked off later. Had the extension and the waiving of the 2matches vs same clan been announced ahead of time, we would've never counted ourselves as being in the playoffs.

I still have to address this:

#76 "It's not like there is some weird advantage they get for playing late."

Well, having a few days of catch up is not _weird_ considering past seasons. But considering what was said about a catch up week in the rules (there won't be one) and admins further supporting that point in a news post not long before the end of the season, _AND_ the extension not being announced until the season was over according to the rules and all public communication from the admins (news posts), I was certainly assuming that we had made it to the playoffs looking at the points during Sun-Mon night (even when I took into account the very probable 3 point loss from our FT game). I didn't even have to count on the can't-play-twice-vs-the-same-clan-the-same-night rule as I assumed the season to have ended and that assumption was clearly supported by all official communication and rules.

So at the same time the catch up days are nothing unusual, but the way it went down now seems, at least to me, very unusual (and counter to the rules if not counter to regular practice) and I hope it never happens again.

I recommend scheduling a few weeks ahead for every team. It worked quite good for us, not only did the games get played, they usually started right on time instead of 15-30mins late!

And when someone had to cancel, there was time to get another opponent for that time slot!

Exclamation point!

Obviously though actually writing clear rules that take as many of these possible scenarios into account could only be a plus.

If we were talking about more professional and organized thing here, I would agree on all these things. But the fact of the matter is that EQL is an unpredictable amateur league that has to be flexible to account for things like schedules not always working out.

Every season there is a last minute push the get the games played and some of them will get played after the deadline. To me every game that gets played day or two late instead of given as a WO or voided makes the league better.

Personally I would much rather lose to a clan that plays a game day late, than win vs. them just because they are not allowed to play anymore. It's not like there is some weird advantage they get for playing late.

As for clans that stop playing: You can't award clans that managed to play vs. them, since that's exactly the same as punishing everyone who didn't manage to get a game going.

The league should be about who plays the best QuakeWorld 4on4, not about who spends the most nights trying to get a game going.

#73 I like the idea of always playing all 3 maps even if it's 2-0 from the start.
Would imo negate all "problems" with current system.
Tho next season there will be a 5 map pool again so don't know if it would work, but for tb3 it would be great.

More or less every div1 team, in the end - after asking ~30 times, managed to get a game versus -fu- last season.

Now you're telling me that SD and CCCP - to decently active teams that actually wanted to play eachother - did not manage to, even with the help of an extra day? And even when that happend, one of them gets WO points because... ?

WOW! Great job by involved players and admins.

I did hear from an admin that we could play on Monday but that was quite late in the season (at the weekend) and I was surprised not to see some official announcement about it.

Of course we did make efforts to play vs DC and imagine the controversy if rather than waiting until Monday when DC could play we had attempted to claim WO on Sunday night. Personally I don't know whether such a request would have been granted (DC has been quite active, and I've never been a fan of giving WOs just based on the fact that one clan has been asking a lot in the final week of season as I/we did) but something to consider nonetheless.

If I was in SR2s position I would be disappointed due to a combination of factors that by themselves aren't a big deal but when combined has seem them miss out on playoffs. I was surprised it took until post #60 to see much comment on this.

As for the points system that is a debate for another day but from a personal point of view I've always like the idea of rankings being based on map wins rather than 'match wins'. 2-1 matches can be quite close and for me giving the winning team the extra point because they won an extra map is fair enough. In playoffs the rewards are greater but for regular season why do we even care so much about who 'won' the encounter, surely we could consider each map a match in it's own right (again a debate for another day, but I've always liked the idea of playing 3 maps regardless of what happens i.e. even at 2-0 you still play the third map).

I think we can have a better point system next season.

It is good to start discussing it now so we can get lot of input on that as well.

And just to make it crystal clear: I am not whining about the points system for this season to get it changed for something that has already happened and was clearly in the rules. I'm simply hoping to re-restart the discussion so that we may have a better point system in the future.

I'm out ->

You may call it nitpicking or bending, but it is certainly undermining the rules.

- season ends on a given date and it is specifically stated that there will be no catch up week (having me believe that we were well in the playoffs on Sunday night / Monday morning.

- Season was not extended until the next morning, _after it had officially ended according to the rules_. Had it been extended well in advance, I wouldn't have such a big problem (if any) with this.

- two official matches were played back-to-back against the same team and again, this is explicitly forbidden by the rules (however I'm not a big proponent of this rule)

- specifics about clans that are removed during or after the season has ended cannot be found in the rules, yet the interpretation of these unwritten rules leads to breaking another rule that has to do with how points are given during the regular season

If you don't want to enforce a certain rule (like the 2 games vs 1 opponent in one day), don't write it in the rules, or if you're really into nice discussions, you can write the rules with caveats and room for interpretation. Also, bending rules is much more OK if there are only winners, but that is not the case here.

I do agree that the point system is flawed. Losing three games 1-2 shouldn't be better than winning one and losing two 0-2. I don't really see the idea behind an extra point for the map win there. It's not like teams need any extra motivation to try to steal maps from better clans or whatever.

Further more this system gives too much emphasis on being really good on one map, and not for being able to win games. This could possibly be an even bigger problem for a 5 map season.

What I don't agree is the nit picking about the extra days and playing two games on the same day. Just because of the nature of QW scene (amateurs with varying amounts of free time to use) bending rules like this is necessary. You must remember that the alternative is giving WOs. I don't think anyone wants that. I'm sure everyone would have preferred that SD-CCCP games got played for example, even if day late and two games in the same day.

Small compromises to get the games actually played have always been allowed and in my opinion should also be in the future.

IMHO:
0:2 - 1 point
1:2 - 2
2:1 - 3
2:0 - 4
Win by WO - 3
Lose by WO - 0

And optionaly: team that lose 0:2 can force to play 3rd map if it want (for 1 point) or to present this point to other team. Point for map won.

And just as a clarification for the last post, we are of course assuming they have played an equal amount of games...

And about the points. This was well documented in the rules, but it has been a problem for a long time. I don't remember the season, but there has been at least one other season where my clan got fucked due to this exact same thing. I certainly like that you get a point for your map win, but it should never be so that a clan with 0 matches won can outpoint a clan with 5 matches won (this is now possible).

#63 my bigger gripe was with the fact that it''s not mentioned in the rules. But also consider it a bit flawed that since you are giving out activity points and by the virtue of playing FT, SR2 was the most active clan in the division, we get nothing for the effort or time spent. I did admit it's a harder issue to tackle in a fair way, but it should at least be mentioned in the rules.

Ofcourse your activity point from playing FT should be removed aswell.

In current system won games doesn't matter, only won maps.
This is a known fact, if there's a better way to do it, I don't know.

However I can see you being mad about the rule breakings tho if such did occur.

"I still can't understand how we can have a clan with two less games won get into the playoffs with the same amount of activity. "

I agree - the system is too heavy towards activity & map wins rather than match wins. I write about this a bit in my last qw.nu column. I'd like to see 4 points given for a match win to motivate teams to win matches rather than just play games & lose 2-1 a lot. I think of this as similar to when football moved from 2 points for a win and 1 for a draw to 3 for a win.

--

On the removal of clans thing, I don't see the issue. My understanding is always that if a clan is removed, the league will be as if they have never been there. It is the only fair way to deal with it. If you have played all of your other games and a clan's removal means that you drop out of the playoffs then that's unlucky, but maybe that means you should have done better in the other games! :-)

And to be very honest, I really don't have that much motivation in going into the playoffs after all this (I am not speaking for others in SR2!). Coming home and finding out all of this and seeing how it came to be (breaking rules and season extended after it had already officially ended). Bleh.

Have to redact a bit as I just noticed that admins had in fact extended the season even when they had just previously stated:

"So I believe we will manage without a catchup week this time."

AND the rules state that there is no catch up week. But I guess catch up days don't count...

Even if that is the case, TKs would still have broken the other rule I mentioned unless they were given some weird permission to not adhere to that. The rules also states that you get 1 point for playing a match. We played a match vs FT, but we don't get that point. Also the rules don't mention anything about removing clans once the season is over and that leading to the removal of all points from the clans that had played them.

So let me get this straight:

TKs won 2 games, SR2 won 5 games (or 4 if we don't count the FT game). We don't even get an activity point for the FT game and TKs played both of their winning games the day after the regular season ended and admins had stated that they won't be having a catchup week.

"Season: 6.5 weeks group stage (no catch up week). The season starts 16th (wed) February and ends 3rd April 2011."

and also broke this rule in the process:

"Division with teams meeting twice may not play the same team twice within the same day (same day counts to start from 3am)"

I have no ill will towards TKs <3, but this is very fucked up on multiple levels. And one of those levels is certainly the point system (once again). I still can't understand how we can have a clan with two less games won get into the playoffs with the same amount of activity. The fact that we beat TKs 2-0 on both of our encounters is just a side issue and not really relevant unless we have equal points. The removal of clans is also a difficult question. We took the time to challenge and actually play FT and what we get in return for the effort is -2 for game win and -1 activity point taken away. gg

haha bps... love that video

ja, ja ts.. te er faktiskt... ja, de.. haritsoppa - ja e poek!

#55 I said whine not insults =P

I love you too btw.

Well last season they did let teams keep the activity points from cancelled games or something like that when WO's were handed out, and all hell broke loose.
Which is why they re-did it that season, I think? :D

@ #51
Mofo suck cock! Gore is a twat!

Better?

Same again for div2: the teams who were active but still didnt get the chance to play vs idle clans have no chance of getting the activity point either, even if they did try to play these games.

The sd-cccp case is different since cccp didnt stop playing. VVDs suggestion perhaps something to think about for next season. Thx!

IMHO: activity points must be only for played games, not for WOs, and activity points can't be canceled if team was dropped in end of season by low activity.
We want back our 3 pints for activity! And change WO's points from 3 to 2: no game - no activity point.

You already have :) hehe lol.

Can't someone start some div3 whine? We feel left out otherwise :P

Seriously though, good luck to all teams.

Its better to deal with the toughest opponents first!

Oh no, I will have to get back to my A game already for the quarterfinal against Scenic and his minions 8( How could you allow this to happen Hooraytio?? I told you before the season that I will only join CSN if you make sure we don't play KOFF until the final, epic fail :(

"Perfect logic was applied to finalize the playoff-tables."

Isn't this the same as a statement that think you know what perfect logic is? So you must think you possess some ability others don't, since other people seems to disagree with what you regard as "perfect logic".. And wtf is _perfect_ logic anyway?

"Yes, I am offensive. It's the easiest way to get through to people who have their mind set on pointing out all the injustices in the world but still don't have a clue how to solve them."

W T F should I need to twist your words for? You say straight out you're offensive towards people that whine.

"This has reached a too low level for me."

Fine. Go back to your high level of offensive words towards people you concider whiners. Which in many others opinion probably just are people with other views than you. If I call you a stupid whiner, are we on the same level then?

Go back and take another good look at your reflection in that pool, Narcissus.

Twisting my words and jumping to conclusions? This has reached a too low level for me.

Somehow it seems that it's always the same people arguing about same stupid shit every time.. Entertaining though. Keep it up! :D

Seriously though, some of the WO's are just essential for making it fair. Particularly in div2 there were some 3 or 4 super inactive clans. They managed to play a few games early in the season, and only some lucky top clans got the "free" wins of them. Obviously it's not fair for the rest of the top clans, who lose: A) activity points B) most likely 2p for winning.

Peace...