about the maps, I think people started to really get cmt1b down last season, and overall it was agreed that cmt4 was a disaster. why not just stick in cmt1b and cmt3? it seems like many people prefer cmt3 over cmt4 for actual 4on4 and not mix mayhem.

gerat news horaytio, really like that you put out this information this much in advance. creds!

ddk: there won't be any cmt1b. We've had this discussion.

cuul!
i seriously dont think the amount of people that sign up would increase with totally new maps tho. just stick with 2 of the kenyas from previous seasons.

Those last seasons kenyas were a distaster imho. WHy not give a go to the Muffin's maps? You all should first try it, many ppl seem to like it.

Cool news. Might have to try and mend some sore limbs and get in a team again :)

Great news! Hope everything goes according to plan!

Yeah, please do Janus! 8)

it's funny how people from tks always distort the numbers and make shit up to promote cmt1b.
ddk last season cmt1b 29 plays, cmt4 45 plays.
And yea 12 of those cmt1b games were with tks involved.

ps. I'm not trying to promote cmt4 or any other map since I won't even be playing.

it's his opinion rkd, brb distorting some numbers!

Baseless opinions, ridiculous unilateral declarations, and just plain lies. All this after only 8 comments! Welcome back map discussion!

Luckily, nothing anyone says will have any impact on what eventually happens. Let's just sit back and wait for someone who doesn't actually like (or know) custom maps to pick them for us, which is the biggest joke of all.

Stev, u mad bro?

"Let's just sit back and wait for someone who doesn't actually like (or know) custom maps to pick them for us, which is the biggest joke of all."

That fits well into your first line about baseless opinions and plain lies.

Im not sure if you are talking about me, Itsinen or Zalon or all of us but I can only speak for myself when I say that just because Im no big fan of cmt1b it doesnt mean that I hate all custom maps. And it certainly doesnt mean that I know nothing about custom maps.

Cmt1b wasnt played more than Cmt4 which in many players opinion is a bad map for qw 4on4. Where does that leave Cmt1b?

I know you want the scene to settle for 5 maps and stick to them season after season but the problem is that its too hard for the scene to settle. Perhaps give some new maps a chance.

TB3 only? Be

Exactly Hagge, lets stick with TB3 or bring back the ORIGINAL quake episode maps!

Kenya will ruin the tourney.

While i think the current two additional maps are not necessarily good, i also think it's not very wise to keep switching them season after season and have the same whine over and over again.

Muff1n's maps seems promising, but including them in this EQL is probably a bit short notice. I'd rather see a (perhaps parallell) custom map tournament including such maps.

Yeah, why not Div 1 (TB3) and Div 1 (Kenya) ??

etc... Or is that a to new untested concept Itsinen?

Hehe, i'd say five maps in a hypothetical "Classic" version of the league is still probably a good idea (just re-use the ones from the old season?), and then five completely new maps for a custom tournament.

Although i didn't imagine it like that, i don't think there's anything that prevents two such tournaments to be run on this same site either, minimizing the overhead of work needed to be done regarding site setups etc?

Just a thought.

Episode maps? No, thank you, we already have one in tb3.
cmt maps were made lng time ago and at least some of them dont fit into today's QW (not that e1m2 does for example imho).
New custom tourney, new tb3? Great idea!
Stable tb5 pooll? Also great. But we have to select the maps first.
I'd suggest all of you start praccing Muffin's maps - it may only do good to the tourney/scene.

Personally I`d love to see my q3dm14 remake. It was tested on public and looked well balanced. If its one of the discussed maps, Admins message me. I would do some lightning tweaking for the final release.

here the original post:
http://www.quakeworld.nu/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4385

Is it finished? What servers is it on?

Besides of some small light tweaking, its finished. I would make a final release if this map would considered as a candidate for EQL.

Its playable at Dybbuk!

Stop moaning you bitches.


Janus4K, get on it bro, long time! hit me up on Mirc!

Muffins maps! o/

Fuck you haters

|-o-| <- TIE FIGHTER

"cmt maps were made lng time ago and at least some of them dont fit into today's QW"

CMT maps are about 6-7 years younger than id maps, and were built to a much closer match/specification to/of modern 4on4 QW than id maps were. They were also all playtested with 4on4 in mind unlike id maps.

I'm not saying that this necessarily makes them better maps, however I don't think one can use such an argument against CMT maps and then not apply it against the likes of dm2.

In any event, I think confirming the map pool needs to be made a priority as it is probably the biggest potential influence on the league, most other rules are likely to be 'standard' I'd assume. Alongside division placements (which can't be debated until signups close) it will be the most contentious issue at least.

Sadly it is already too late. Even if you announce it right now, most clans will not get a chance to prac during the summer, and you start very early, so yet again you reduced the possible time to prac the maps properly practically to zero. No wonder these non-tb3 maps get some really angry reactions - players come back from summer, play an official match right away on a map they've never seen before nor had the chance to practice it.

"CMT maps are about 6-7 years younger than id maps, and were built to a much closer match/specification to/of modern 4on4 QW than id maps were. They were also all playtested with 4on4 in mind unlike id maps.

I'm not saying that this necessarily makes them better maps, however I don't think one can use such an argument against CMT maps and then not apply it against the likes of dm2."

That's probably true - we play tb3 because we simply got used to it and some nice strategies have been involved there. But that would probably happen on all 4/4 maps.
Adding fuel to the fire: if dm2 doesn't fit into today's QW standards.... So what can we say about e1m2?
From my point of view: if maps like cmt4 were to be played constantly, I'm not sure if I would stick to the game. Probably not. The map may seem ok at first glance but the ridiculous amount of cells is just offputting. It's all about shaftfest at Quad. And Quad+LG = no skill weapon unfortunately.
You have to be very careful with cells when designing a new map nowadays.

Why didnt anyone listen to me years ago when I said cmt4 = povdmm4 at quadroom? Now it seems like its an accepted fact :)

Otherwise cmt4 is quite fun, much more rewarding quakewise than playing cmt1b or cmt3.

#24
I think that the EQL admins really want to achieve a sort of consensus on custom maps - creating a stable tb5 or a new tb3 for new kenyas tournaments is a great idea.
But how can you achieve it if the attitude of the scene (not all ofc) is discouraging?
It's even hard to gather ppl fot testing nowadays.

So veeeery interesting.

"I think this map is good, but that map sucks ass and require is too old / no teamplay / no skills / too many cells / too few weapons / too much armor / too big / etc whine cry blablabla".

To me, e1m2 feels like the map of tb3 / cmtx that rewards teamplay the most. Solo raids between weapons and armor doesn't work there, unlike the other maps. You really need to get your shit together as a group. It's a map with a totally unique feel to it (unlike many of the dm3-wannabe maps like cmtx, and stating it's sucky because its old / wasen't designed for whatever it's used as now doesn't prove anything but your own ignorance for different views.

What I think is interesting here is indeed that we knew this season will be with two additional maps, and that it isn't decided months ago already which two maps it would be. Why would the admins want to have more drama around this than needed? I just don't understand why that would be difficult to decide what two maps that should be played after the previous season ended. It would make it so much cooler to actually have some other maps you could mix / prac with a tourney in mind to actually learn it, rather than figuring out just when the tourney is about to start and avoid the maps like a pest because, yeah, it's obviously boring for many to play a map you / your teammates doesn't know.

So please, less pointless "this map sucks, but this map rocks", and just get a poll out or just decide what maps it's gonna be asap, and let the whiny bitches whine.

And yeah, cmt4 > cmt1b by far ;)

How about having a system where both teams, before the game, gives one map thumbs down, thus removing it from selection? The idea would be to remove perhaps a map your team doesn't really know, or a map where you know the other team is strong? That would make for closer games, without the feeling of: "Well I don't really know this map. At all. What was it called again?"

Also after the removal of maps, you pick maps in "normal" fashion of the remaining three. In the playoffs where some/all of the matches are likely to be 5 mappers, it shouldn't be as much of an issue since you should by this time have had enough practise on all maps to "feel at home" on them. I stay away from the word "mastered" since we all know that's a pipe dream for any map, in any game.

I'm seeing this as a way of smoothing over the crack between the Conservatists and the Neo Map party. A meeting eachother half-way kind of deal. Perhaps some food for thought?

#29
It's the same system that is used in QL and tbh atm when there are a couple of new potential maps there actually could be a possibility to do this. Before there wasn't atleast in my opinion enough maps to have a 7 map pool which wouldn't have created too much drama. This could actually work now since Muffins maps seems to be quite popular compared to many others that has tried. Nice idea, thx, I think this is worth a discussion!

Sounds reasonable IMO as makes it more difficult for a clan to simply specialise in one 'strange' map and pick that as their homemap every game. By allowing the opposition to throw a map, it means that (optimally) you need to learn two extra maps really well so you can choose the one that your opponent doesn't throw.

It has the added benefit for more casual clans that they can throw maps that they really don't like/enjoy, maybe they dont' wanna get raped by the best in the division on dm2/e3m7, maybe they want to get rid of some weird kenya map they've never played etc.

Of course adopting such a model does have challenges in that you need to have a pretty tight map pool, and it doesn't bring us any closer in terms of a consensus as to what maps should be included in it, which I think is the main talking point.

Well to be honest with you HangTime it's a topic that has been discussed for years without ever reaching a conclusion. I merely tried to think outside the box and perhaps reduce the inevitable whining/griefing/moaning to come when the final maps are presented. "That map sucks a*s, but the other one is quite good. Atleast we can remove that one, lolz!"

Alot of the people complaining aren't really going out of their way to try new maps either, which is certainly not making a transition easier. The feedback is incredibly limited and people seem to rather complain about things afterwards rather than trying to do something about them beforehand. Atleast that's my impression. Not calling anyone out or anything.

I hate this solution. I'm pretty sure this will lead to the most dissatisfaction for most players possible because teams are not going to vote against maps simply because "they don't know them well enough yet" but because they consider the opposition a lot stronger there.

One example. Team A is a top team, that masters all id maps and there is little doubt that even after a heavy night of drinking, no sleep and no prac games for the last 500 years they are going to beat team B easily on all id maps. Dm2 is A's best map, followed by dm3, e1m2. Team B is obviously going to "drop" dm2 and avoid a rape there, but prefer to play A's 2nd choice. The map chosen by B doesn't matter, it's probably the custom map, that wasn't dropped by A.
The point is, playing successfully is part of the fun for almost everyone. This system would have a huge impact and basically "removes" each team's favourite (because strongest) map for the WHOLE season.

Seriously, I don't mind the "dropping" of maps in order to decide which map acts as a decider, but implementing this into the normal decision process and penalizing a team for being good on one map can't be a good idea.

On the other hand, you are then actually "forced" to have some matches where you play two uninteresting maps where both of the teams know who is going to win. I don't know how much this applies in 4on4, but in duels I had too many of such games.

Also, the third map is often picked kinda random. You have 3 maps remaining and you somehow throw away two, but the chances are you made a mistake when throwing out and had you decided better, you could have won the match. What if the "decider" map was the only map where the opponent is able to defeat you, out of the three that were left before the throw procedure? Nothing else to say in this situation than "too bad". I think it's kinda silly.

I would never say that new maps are "uninteresting". I personally am very interested how top clans would handle new challenges/strategies on such maps. It just takes some time and good attitude, not lame whining.

Well, it might happend that a team removes the best map of the other team, but in that case there should be a quite much more intresting game between these two clans. You also gotta remember that clans don't always remove a map the others are good in, atleast if they are quite equally skilled on several maps. They might also just remove a map that they don't like. You also have to remember, this isn't a one map league, so you've gotta be strong on several maps. That's a good thing with having several maps and it also courages to practice more -> gives activity to the scene. Also top clans usually find opponents ready to play kenyas, while maybe not tb3 so there are good and bad things with this just as with the tradition system.

In cases when clan drop the last 2 maps there should be the semistrong map left of both teams, this should provide a good battle compared to if any of the teams would be able to pick their stronger map. And you can't blame the mappool for the mapdropping mistakes you do, that's just a lack of homework :)

well, andy, the current system forces you to play your worst map through-out the season (by your logic). Sacrificing your best map to take out your worst sounds like a good deal to make it an exciting and even 3 maps.

I think you are being a bit overdramatic. This system would make the games more interesting and also make a transition into a bigger map pool less traumatic for the conservative part of the scene.

The question in my opinion is not about which system gives the most "interesting" games but how people enjoy the game best. Maybe I am a bit overdramatic, I'm not sure ;)
But to me it's no question what is going to happen here. Both teams might possibly "sacrifice", as you called it, the map one enjoys playing the most and that cannot be the purpose of the game.

You can bash/dislike "conservatives" all you want, but people will hate being told which map NOT to play. It's one thing tolerating a map one doesn't like, because there is a good reason to play ("the other team chose it" -> sportsmanship), ruining the fun for someone else by de-selecting another's favourite is a completely different matter.

In reality, it might turn out completely differently and clans simply ignore the custom maps and focus on tb3 again - which also is the opposite of what you are trying to achieve. But that leaves this rule open nonetheless for "abuse". Either way, and that is why I really dislike this thought, new maps are going to be accepted or not, no-one can say for sure beforehand, but this rule isn't going to help in achieving this - it will only cause drama and hatred.

To clarify, I'm not bashing/disliking anyone. For you to even make such a false statement makes me think that you're not really reading what I'm writing.

Anyway, I'm just trying to think of ideas that will enhance everyones enjoyment. And I really do believe this system would enhance mine, as a somewhat conservative division 1 player. Naturally I expected people to be against it. But it's healthy to have a discussion about it.

And again, an interesting and even game to watch is for sure alot more fun to play than a dominating victory? The two are not as distantly related as you try to make it sound.

Nobody said it was the purpose of the game of the game to make sacrifices. But there is no gain without sacrifice. And in this case I think the price to pay is very small for what you gain. Clearly you do not agree.

People will hate being told what map not to play? So it's alot easier to tell people what maps to play, than what maps not to play? I don't follow the logic here.

Well if that is the reality, fine. If neither of the clans wants to play the new maps, fair enough, their decision. But they should keep in mind that they will eventually have to play them if they're interested in making it in the playoffs. Plus, this might not be such a bad thing. This way conservative clans get their will through aswell as the clans who enjoy the new maps.

If you go into something, seeing only the limits of it, then sure you will be equally disappointed. But if you manage to see what it could bring and the possibilities, you would be equally excited.

Like I said before, I think you're being overdramatic about a system that has been used in so many other games with success. And to go so far to call it hatred? I just simply disagree.

Cara, my statement regarding not bashing map-conservatives was not addressed at you personally, but you first talked about finding a deal between conservatives and neo mappers. And it definitely isn't meant in a personal way, if you understood it this way, I'm sorry!
Just to make that clear, I'm not a tb3-only supporter, as you probably gathered from other threads or in-game. It's simply that I feel tb3-only ("tb3-mainly" might be a more appropiate term) players are well under-represented in the discussions, both in the comments and on the forums. However, in the game itself they play an important role and their opinion cannot be neglected. Many just want to play the game they way it always has been played and changes are noticed when it's already too late to have an impact.

The logic in my thinking which you find difficult to understand, is like this: Most players have a clear understanding of what they like best about 4on4 qw but they no longer have 100% influence that it's going to happen in a game. It offers a lot of potential for horse-trading between the teams and takes away focus of the game itself.
Image you would like to go out this weekend and the week after with a friend. Instead of doing what both of you like best this weekend and what the friend likes best the next weekend, both ideas are rejected, instead it's number 2 both weekends. That might work well for some time but I'm not sure this is going to last for very long before both realise they might be enjoying their time more spending it with someone else.

Cara's idea seems interesting and perhaps deserves credit. With tb7 it could work. I hope the admins will give some time to the mappers because two additional maps are on the way (q3dm14 by anni and bay12 by pluppa) which only need final brushes and some testing.
Thus, we could have a nice custom map choice, couldnt we? Those most popular could make the final supplement for the stable map pool and those less popular would serve as the supplement for a possible (hope so) custom map tourney.

bring back some exmx maps then ill reinstall qw and dust off my good old 19" crt monitor

Just to remind you: Naughty is considered the best map of Zaka, and he's considered one the best mappers out there, so admins remember Naughty!

Not sure about bay12 atm, it still needs a lot of work. ctl5, ctl6 (just to be finished), q3dm14 (just to be finished( and naughty (only minor improvements) are the best choices atm.

I agree with Kloze. Naughty could use more standout stuff in the corridors though, as they all seem very bland and they all mend together in a mess. Perhaps add some torches, paintings/banners to make them more unique.

On another note though, I really think the new mappers should use 24 bit textures. Either make their own or use existing ones. Don't get me wrong I love their passion for making new maps, but I think it's a step in the wrong direction to make new maps without a little bit of eyecandy and freshness to them.

I concur with the above statement. Its 2011 and maps just cant look like 96 again. The good example of a new style QW map is ctl6. Looks fresh but still QW style.

Thats what q3dm14 need most and naughty as well. When the mapper finish the work we may have an oustanding map pool.

There're 24bit textures for naughty.
Some screens:
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/screen_shots/Naughty _Brickworks_1.jpg
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files … orks_2.jpg

Where the fuck is Muffin?!

#46 Kapitan Kloze - 2011-07-14 23:09 (94.42.57.XXX)
I concur with the above statement. Its 2011 and maps just cant look like 96 again. The good example of a new style QW map is ctl6. Looks fresh but still QW style.

"look" "style" - these words don't help to clarify whether a map is actually good within the ruleset of 4on4 in qw. ambiguous terms like those don't really help an argument at all. it's generally why the map discussions tend to end up going in circles, it's rare that people quantify the qualities of a map, correctly attributing these qualities to the fundamentals exhibited in 4on4 qw.

if you want completely new maps then that's fine, but what do you mean with "new style" of map? a map enables different types of gameplay, so what do these new maps promote to the gameplay that is new?

my own opinion on this entire issue is that I don't care too much, as experience has taught me that's the best way to go with this :). although I agree with the idea Medar presented to me where the kenya season should be the season starting in march and not the one starting in september/octobner. that way you could safely put in new maps with more testing and without as much complaint. but as it is now, maps don't get announced and inactive players come back to find these new maps they've never seen before in the league; as the community is so small we should aim to be as accomodating as possible to the majority.

ddk: My post was first and foremost about the fact that you couldn't tell all the corridors apart in Naughty, making it incredibly hard to learn the map as it ends up like a big blur in the head. My suggestion was to make them more unique in a beautiful symphony with graphical stuff. The 24 bit textures was a sidenote.

And the fact that maps don't get announced well in advance is bad. People will be pissed off to an extent that there even is new maps. This will only feed that anger. Agreed.
It might be hard to avoid though, as the feedback procedure from the community is poor and/or slow and the mappers can only improve their maps so much with the given time.

DDK: "New style" - I meant mainly those curves etc made by Muffin on ctl6. Those look nice and interesting and not that 96ish anymore. Which is good.
Maps announced late is bad but this problem has been already discussed in this thread. The feedback is so poor nowadays that the mappers really struggle with improvements and stuff.
Will new maps offer something new to the gameplay? Perhaps: I have played just 2 games on anni's map but many more on ctl5/6.
Ctl5 is a large map, the spawnfragging is limited and it may be hard to lock the map. Quadruns are demading due to the fact that you either have to clear RA or go to RL area which is on the other side of the map. And there's always LG in the water (YA is too close to Quad) from wich enemies can attack either YA or RA easily.
The map is defensive and may be really hard to master but imho really different than tb3.
CTL6 on the other hand (still to be finished but the end is near) will be a very fast and full-of-action map. There's no RA and LG, just dynamic duos of YA/RL/GA/SNG. That map is easy to learn because there are clearly two sides and Quad in the middle. The GATE resembles TELE on dm2: you just stand there and keep an eye on it 24/7 if you want some control (YA/RL at the slime pool behind it). The map is similiar to dm2 in that aspect but involves even more action and is most entertaining.