Cara, we had many different opinions on some topics but in this case I couldn't agree more. And that is from totally different perspectives: You are div1, I am div3 (and about to get owned in many games). This is a competition. You are going to lose if people are better than you. That's how the game (and life) works.

And I don't deny that some people are unwilling to improve or rather invest the time to do so (including myself), but that doesn't mean that it's the majority's job to give me an opportunity to neglect that. If I suck, I get owned, that's how Quake has always has been.

Sometimes, when reading the forums, qw.nu etc. it's as if everything that happens in the world of quake must be taken into consideration as to what extent "newbies" might think and whether it attracts new players. Sorry, but EQL is primarily a league that is run for people who are already here and love the game for what it is and have done so for many years. Not all leagues can be run to ignore that fact and solely focus on attracting new ones ignoring the positive aspects of what everyone else already here enjoys.

Smaller divs still can give a decent competition. Why wouldnt it in the first place? In fact there WILL BE a heated competition when the skills are close.

Remember Fairy Tail from the last season? Avenger, Diki, Maks, Kopytko and Goqsane won one dm2 vs Fusion and were placed in div2 agains their will (and TP skills) I guess. And guess what? They stopped playing! Can you see any of them now? Are they active? (just Kopytko I guess). And the infamous CCS case.
Keep it that way and you will have hot competition of 10 teams overall in 2 years maximum.

Well fairy tail is good example of hard to place players put in a clan.
Not too surprising they ended in div1, they got individually some div1 players.
Maga, diki, avenger, bravo, maks.
Like hooraytio says every 2nd post, don't mix different skill players in a team too much, just makes it hard to place and might end up disappointing for your team.

Some players just quit, start, idle and form new clans all the time... Thats just their nature and not neccesarily a result of EQL divisions even though i can admit that a few quits have been because of misplaced clans.

Smaller divisions just enhances the effects of idlers and quitters since they quit for alot more reasons than just losing a few games.

#52 You're mixing correlation and causality, probably on purpose to support your view... Do you really suggest that such a mixed bag of extremely inactive players to begin with would be playing together today regardles where they were placed? Seriously, it's not very hard to see that such a random lineup will play maybe two games and disband...

Lol Kloze, as if the choice of division was the reason for Fairy Tail quitting. I don't think anyone expected them to stay around longer than a week or two no matter what division they got placed in.

If clans didnt stop playing after 1-4 games because they lost vs top1-4 teams they would actually see that they can win and play good versus the rest of the division.

Go ahead and start versus the hardest opponents if you want but atleast try some games vs the other teams too before you whine.

Many cases brought up here are exactly like this: End up in a higher div than expected, whine like hell, quit playing OR play vs the hardest clans, whine like hell, stop playing.

Thats not really the leagues fault. Come back when you have tried versus the whole division and still cant win. In 99% of the cases this wont happen since the lower clans most often win versus clans that won versus some clan they themselves lost versus, if you get my drift. Its a little round-robin mostly.

It's nice to see there's finally a real competition also in div1 and you dont know who the winner is already before the league has started.

Ihminen :D

hanne and Blaze: you commented on FT example , why didnt you mention CCS case then? "Probably on purpose to support your view..."

and this one: "Smaller divisions just enhances the effects of idlers and quitters since they quit for alot more reasons than just losing a few games."

Please.....
Convince ppl now that smaller and well-ballance divs make ppl stop playing/idle and bigger/unbalanced dont.
And dont give me that "competition excuse" because that may apply to 50 % of the scene (if not less)

Hanne -- Hagge :), sorry for mistyping

#54

If you increase the number of rounds from 1 to 3-4-5 you will directly decrease the effects of clan idling. It's that simple.

#16: kloze asked low division players to speak out: I have played eql seasons when there were 5 divisions. I think the skill level in div5 was much lower than it is today in div3.
One aspect is that there are many veteran clans and players in div3 that play together for many seasons.

And guys.... i am looking forward to spectate that new ueber-galactic team in div1. They seem to be built up with only one purpose in mind: To destroy the evil slacker empire once and for all. After that the realy-realy best players are all assembled in one team and qw can rest in peace. Until of course someone decides to have a party with his online friends again and start some qw rounds. Then it will all start over again :)

I dont think the size of the division is a major cause for quitting. You over-emphasize the effect of official rapes, big lossed and losses. Getting raped 3-4 times is a small part of your overall qw experience anyway.

Players quit because they either lose interest in the game in general or because they dont have time. Getting raped a few times in official might add to the equation but is not the real reason. As long as you know you can play close games with most clans in the div and also choose you to prac against I dont believe that the losses vs the top is relevant for discussing why clans quit.

Getting raped in every single prac and off might cause a quit to 100% though.

Small divisions is dangerous to activity because if the division consist of 7 teams who are supposed to meet eachother twice the effect on the games played is double for every idle clan compared to a large division where you meet every clan once.

#64 "Small divisions is dangerous to activity because if the division consist of 7 teams who are supposed to meet eachother twice the effect on the games played is double for every idle clan compared to a large division where you meet every clan once."
Thats why maniac's suggestion is valid here: if a div is smaller there should be more rounds in it, if a div is bigger the amount of games may be smaller. That should sort out the problem.

I don't know anything about CCS, but I know Diki and maga personally and I'm sure their activity in 4on4 has absolutely nothing to do with where they were placed some season. FT was just a poor example. I mean did someone expect OJOJ to play 5 years together? These are just the kind of random mix teams that you put up for one season when you don't have anything proper going on or don't want to put much effort into it.

I think cara got plenty of good points. The problem in the scene is lazy players, that don't want to compete and improve. It's totally fine ofc, eveyrone is entitled to play however they want. But it is this laziness is that is killing the scene, not team placements. How many divisions the teams are split into matters nothing. Just seems like an excuse to try to manipulate the admins into their own personal preference. People who can't stand to lose and whine whenever they might lose a majority of their matches in their division is a problem.

Div whine is pathetic. Just play and do your best. Trust in the people devoting their spare time to create a good competetive tourney for us all, and if you can't take the heat, stay out of the fucking kitchen :)

#64

its not about the rapes. well, not all. in the 3 div system, lets take div3 to an example. because of the average skill level (which is way higher than the real average cuz of the top3 teams) the others dont even had a chance to compete with the title at all. they are just there to assist the top3 (and maybe giving them a wo to avoid rapes) and to compete with the remaining teams. In smaller divs and multiple rounds, you just avoid the first part cuz of even teams.

Yeah i have in mind that its hard to place clans like paras + maga or russians + xpr and yeah, i dont have a good solution for that one, but imo its two different problems.

I cant think of any league or cup where the teams or players below the middle can compete with the top for the title.


Your logic:
Chosen should be in div3 because we have never won div2.

Well I thought we would have discouraged clans to add a player way above the general skill level in their team by now by often placing them in the higher division.

Thing is, clans just dont learn. I understand the case where irl mates want to be in the same clan, or players who have a history together but one of them became really good. I dont, however, understand the cases where some random good player join a random worse clan. Nothing good can come of it regarding placement.

#69

you are concluding wrong with csn and div2.

and there is a difference between knowing that you wont be able to compete with the top3, and if you figure it out midseason/after played your games. if a team practicing more, it would challenge the others. but if you know that no matter how prac's you're gonna play, you wont be able to win the top3 cuz they're not belonging into that div, well, that makes a difference to me.

It makes perfectly sense to me that every team is not going to win versus top3 clans.

This is still a competetion not some marxist day-care center where everyone gets to lick the same lollipop.

Wouldn't it be reasonable to start the division count from div2 now that tVS doesn't play?

Now I want a lollipop.

yeah, it makes more sense to make a joke about the idea of "smaller divs with 3-4 rounds" instead of considering it and trying to be a bit constructive.

but hell no, default deny is way better until qw dies completely.

If you bother to read what ive been writing it is clear that it isnt a default-no.

It seems that the idea we presented wasnt even considered. It was decided very quickly and the discussion started yesterday? Quite unusual for EQL standards.
And you said Hoora yesterday that it would be considered if around 14 clans voted so. So how can you expect this to happen in one day????????

We have been discussing this, amongst other issues, since we announced the dates for eql14. So it has not been a short discussion.

#73 Ihminen - 2011-09-16 12:14 (89.106.44.XXX)
Wouldn't it be reasonable to start the division count from div2 now that tVS doesn't play?

#78 Hooraytio - 2011-09-16 14:05 (83.233.83.XXX)
We have been discussing this, amongst other issues, since we announced the dates for eql14.


So what did u decide?

Tbh they should create a div0 instead now that milton and xantom finally have some good mates.
You've been riding their dicks for so long I guess you just can't stop ihminen.

"BLT won div2 in eql12 as well without being put in div1. Why? Because they are not good enough to play in div1."

How could you say that they aren't good enough without having them play in div1? They outperformed easily all of the teams in div2 last season.

no