no

"BLT won div2 in eql12 as well without being put in div1. Why? Because they are not good enough to play in div1."

How could you say that they aren't good enough without having them play in div1? They outperformed easily all of the teams in div2 last season.

Tbh they should create a div0 instead now that milton and xantom finally have some good mates.
You've been riding their dicks for so long I guess you just can't stop ihminen.

#73 Ihminen - 2011-09-16 12:14 (89.106.44.XXX)
Wouldn't it be reasonable to start the division count from div2 now that tVS doesn't play?

#78 Hooraytio - 2011-09-16 14:05 (83.233.83.XXX)
We have been discussing this, amongst other issues, since we announced the dates for eql14.


So what did u decide?

We have been discussing this, amongst other issues, since we announced the dates for eql14. So it has not been a short discussion.

It seems that the idea we presented wasnt even considered. It was decided very quickly and the discussion started yesterday? Quite unusual for EQL standards.
And you said Hoora yesterday that it would be considered if around 14 clans voted so. So how can you expect this to happen in one day????????

If you bother to read what ive been writing it is clear that it isnt a default-no.

yeah, it makes more sense to make a joke about the idea of "smaller divs with 3-4 rounds" instead of considering it and trying to be a bit constructive.

but hell no, default deny is way better until qw dies completely.

Now I want a lollipop.

Wouldn't it be reasonable to start the division count from div2 now that tVS doesn't play?

It makes perfectly sense to me that every team is not going to win versus top3 clans.

This is still a competetion not some marxist day-care center where everyone gets to lick the same lollipop.

#69

you are concluding wrong with csn and div2.

and there is a difference between knowing that you wont be able to compete with the top3, and if you figure it out midseason/after played your games. if a team practicing more, it would challenge the others. but if you know that no matter how prac's you're gonna play, you wont be able to win the top3 cuz they're not belonging into that div, well, that makes a difference to me.

Well I thought we would have discouraged clans to add a player way above the general skill level in their team by now by often placing them in the higher division.

Thing is, clans just dont learn. I understand the case where irl mates want to be in the same clan, or players who have a history together but one of them became really good. I dont, however, understand the cases where some random good player join a random worse clan. Nothing good can come of it regarding placement.

I cant think of any league or cup where the teams or players below the middle can compete with the top for the title.


Your logic:
Chosen should be in div3 because we have never won div2.

#64

its not about the rapes. well, not all. in the 3 div system, lets take div3 to an example. because of the average skill level (which is way higher than the real average cuz of the top3 teams) the others dont even had a chance to compete with the title at all. they are just there to assist the top3 (and maybe giving them a wo to avoid rapes) and to compete with the remaining teams. In smaller divs and multiple rounds, you just avoid the first part cuz of even teams.

Yeah i have in mind that its hard to place clans like paras + maga or russians + xpr and yeah, i dont have a good solution for that one, but imo its two different problems.

I don't know anything about CCS, but I know Diki and maga personally and I'm sure their activity in 4on4 has absolutely nothing to do with where they were placed some season. FT was just a poor example. I mean did someone expect OJOJ to play 5 years together? These are just the kind of random mix teams that you put up for one season when you don't have anything proper going on or don't want to put much effort into it.

I think cara got plenty of good points. The problem in the scene is lazy players, that don't want to compete and improve. It's totally fine ofc, eveyrone is entitled to play however they want. But it is this laziness is that is killing the scene, not team placements. How many divisions the teams are split into matters nothing. Just seems like an excuse to try to manipulate the admins into their own personal preference. People who can't stand to lose and whine whenever they might lose a majority of their matches in their division is a problem.

Div whine is pathetic. Just play and do your best. Trust in the people devoting their spare time to create a good competetive tourney for us all, and if you can't take the heat, stay out of the fucking kitchen :)

#64 "Small divisions is dangerous to activity because if the division consist of 7 teams who are supposed to meet eachother twice the effect on the games played is double for every idle clan compared to a large division where you meet every clan once."
Thats why maniac's suggestion is valid here: if a div is smaller there should be more rounds in it, if a div is bigger the amount of games may be smaller. That should sort out the problem.

I dont think the size of the division is a major cause for quitting. You over-emphasize the effect of official rapes, big lossed and losses. Getting raped 3-4 times is a small part of your overall qw experience anyway.

Players quit because they either lose interest in the game in general or because they dont have time. Getting raped a few times in official might add to the equation but is not the real reason. As long as you know you can play close games with most clans in the div and also choose you to prac against I dont believe that the losses vs the top is relevant for discussing why clans quit.

Getting raped in every single prac and off might cause a quit to 100% though.

Small divisions is dangerous to activity because if the division consist of 7 teams who are supposed to meet eachother twice the effect on the games played is double for every idle clan compared to a large division where you meet every clan once.

#16: kloze asked low division players to speak out: I have played eql seasons when there were 5 divisions. I think the skill level in div5 was much lower than it is today in div3.
One aspect is that there are many veteran clans and players in div3 that play together for many seasons.

And guys.... i am looking forward to spectate that new ueber-galactic team in div1. They seem to be built up with only one purpose in mind: To destroy the evil slacker empire once and for all. After that the realy-realy best players are all assembled in one team and qw can rest in peace. Until of course someone decides to have a party with his online friends again and start some qw rounds. Then it will all start over again :)

#54

If you increase the number of rounds from 1 to 3-4-5 you will directly decrease the effects of clan idling. It's that simple.

Hanne -- Hagge :), sorry for mistyping

hanne and Blaze: you commented on FT example , why didnt you mention CCS case then? "Probably on purpose to support your view..."

and this one: "Smaller divisions just enhances the effects of idlers and quitters since they quit for alot more reasons than just losing a few games."

Please.....
Convince ppl now that smaller and well-ballance divs make ppl stop playing/idle and bigger/unbalanced dont.
And dont give me that "competition excuse" because that may apply to 50 % of the scene (if not less)

Ihminen :D

It's nice to see there's finally a real competition also in div1 and you dont know who the winner is already before the league has started.

If clans didnt stop playing after 1-4 games because they lost vs top1-4 teams they would actually see that they can win and play good versus the rest of the division.

Go ahead and start versus the hardest opponents if you want but atleast try some games vs the other teams too before you whine.

Many cases brought up here are exactly like this: End up in a higher div than expected, whine like hell, quit playing OR play vs the hardest clans, whine like hell, stop playing.

Thats not really the leagues fault. Come back when you have tried versus the whole division and still cant win. In 99% of the cases this wont happen since the lower clans most often win versus clans that won versus some clan they themselves lost versus, if you get my drift. Its a little round-robin mostly.

Lol Kloze, as if the choice of division was the reason for Fairy Tail quitting. I don't think anyone expected them to stay around longer than a week or two no matter what division they got placed in.

#52 You're mixing correlation and causality, probably on purpose to support your view... Do you really suggest that such a mixed bag of extremely inactive players to begin with would be playing together today regardles where they were placed? Seriously, it's not very hard to see that such a random lineup will play maybe two games and disband...

Some players just quit, start, idle and form new clans all the time... Thats just their nature and not neccesarily a result of EQL divisions even though i can admit that a few quits have been because of misplaced clans.

Smaller divisions just enhances the effects of idlers and quitters since they quit for alot more reasons than just losing a few games.

Well fairy tail is good example of hard to place players put in a clan.
Not too surprising they ended in div1, they got individually some div1 players.
Maga, diki, avenger, bravo, maks.
Like hooraytio says every 2nd post, don't mix different skill players in a team too much, just makes it hard to place and might end up disappointing for your team.

Smaller divs still can give a decent competition. Why wouldnt it in the first place? In fact there WILL BE a heated competition when the skills are close.

Remember Fairy Tail from the last season? Avenger, Diki, Maks, Kopytko and Goqsane won one dm2 vs Fusion and were placed in div2 agains their will (and TP skills) I guess. And guess what? They stopped playing! Can you see any of them now? Are they active? (just Kopytko I guess). And the infamous CCS case.
Keep it that way and you will have hot competition of 10 teams overall in 2 years maximum.

Cara, we had many different opinions on some topics but in this case I couldn't agree more. And that is from totally different perspectives: You are div1, I am div3 (and about to get owned in many games). This is a competition. You are going to lose if people are better than you. That's how the game (and life) works.

And I don't deny that some people are unwilling to improve or rather invest the time to do so (including myself), but that doesn't mean that it's the majority's job to give me an opportunity to neglect that. If I suck, I get owned, that's how Quake has always has been.

Sometimes, when reading the forums, qw.nu etc. it's as if everything that happens in the world of quake must be taken into consideration as to what extent "newbies" might think and whether it attracts new players. Sorry, but EQL is primarily a league that is run for people who are already here and love the game for what it is and have done so for many years. Not all leagues can be run to ignore that fact and solely focus on attracting new ones ignoring the positive aspects of what everyone else already here enjoys.

#47
It's not hardcore competition. It's basic competition.

We need to offer a platform where people can compete. The competition in it's raw form generates an interest you can't get from unmotivated players struggling to be in a as low division as possible.

I understand what you are saying Cara and I think you're right in some regards.

However you can't deny tho there is a huge number of people who actually are not motivated to improve, but rather want to play the game they have played and loved for years at a competitive level of their current skill. (or even under their skill)

And I don't blame them. If you're not driven to become better, what is actually in it playing at the highest level? There's no e-fame, there's no money.

All the div1 (or former so) players signing up for div2 (or even div3 lol) is a clear sign of this.

All the div2/3 clans who never wan't to take the next step into a higher div is another one.

I am not saying this is something good. It seems to be the reality though.

Give me my fun now goddamnit!!

Screw you guys, I´m going home...

you can have your hardcore competition with about 2,5 teams left if the trend continues.
we need to offer fun, accessible competition if we want to keep qw from dying out completely.

Perhaps the road to redeeming QW isn't as simple as to fool bad players into thinking they're good? In every aspect of life, if you suck at something, you will lose. If you really enjoy it, you will improve, being inspired by the really good actors and hoping that, by practice and determination, one day you can achieve such skill.

People seem to forget that this is a competition. If it was for the sole purpose of enjoyment for the casual player, why even call it a league? Let's call it a donkey farm.
When I started to play quake, what motivated me to play was watching demos of the good players and hoping that one day, I could compete with the very best.

In my eyes, cuddling with bad players not interested in improving is just prolonging their inevitable exit. For starters they are not the people breathing fresh air into the scene. They should not be the focus. They are not motivating anyone.

So in my mind, what motivates newbies is a competitive league. Not a league that tries to meet everyone's expectations and ends up meetings nobody's.

So if you're not interested in improving or competing (which in my mind goes hand in hand), you are always welcome to mixes where teams are formed to be as even as possible regardless of your individual skill level. You can even prac (if you're in a clan) all night long against clans you're on the same skill level as, enjoying quake with your friends.

When people want to compete they should be warmly welcomed to enter the league. But if they are not, there's alot of other ways to enjoy quake. So make EQL a competition for the people interested in competing, and not a retirement home.

The divisions shouldn't be defined by people's laziness and poor attitude towards competition. Rather their drive and passion for the game.

Hail Demolition Crew and Machinery!

voted for rkd, and kloze.

I coudnt concur more with #42

Preventing ppl from quitting and listening to the lower skilled one/nebbies also is taking care of the game. As well as creating/running new tourneys ofc :)

I don't understand the logic that smaller divs = more rapes..
If you look at my suggestion for div2 there's really no team there that can truly rape another team in that div. sd2 and DC with their best lineup will be able to beat some teams with some big scores but nothing like we see when low div1 clans play top div1 clans.
And the overall skill of those teams in that div2 I suggested is really close imo.
Perhaps Oclan is a bit weak there but would still be able to compete or moved to div3.
Smaller divs = better games, but people gotta realize aswell not to divide the divs into equal size, do it based on skill instead, if there are 10 teams of similar skill put them in one div. If only 5 of similar skill, put only 5 in that div.

Imo any team that wants to play in division 1 currently, should have the opportunity to do so (unless they're div99 of course).

It's also too bad it's come to a point where it's needed to discuss how to handle the symptoms of the shrinking scene instead of putting a lot more energy into getting more players into QW and thereafter into the 4on4 scene.

div1: sr, f0m, c88, tks, dc, sd, sd2
div2: the rest.

Finally the best part of the season has started :) On a serious note. I don't see smaller divisions benefiting QW in the long term at all. (maybe short term)

It will make for even more skill polarization (not necessarily within the div) and with the always idle clans of each division it might break some divs. Also if you know your team is going to be raped by X and Y, then having to play them not once but twice might be extremely boring for that clan.

I'd rather see what Rikoll said, but I don't think that is going to happen. and it might be the right choice in this particular game due to the rape factor.

im totally with kloze this time. As i was pointing out season to season, this system won't help the newbies and new teams to adapt and learn.

With the smaller-div-system, yes it can happen that the top 3 will rape the lower 5 (in a 4 div systems).
The skill gap is closer than in the 3div systems. The lower teams CAN reach the top3, they can steal points from them and can compete!

and yes, it can happen that clans went idle. and? increase the number of rounds to 5. with a division with 7 teams, 2 go idle, 5 teams reamin. 5 teams with 5 rounds is a huge amount of qw fun..

so im totally up for smaller, and maybe 5div system.

Don't think 2 larger divs would do anyone any good, just alot of wo's, I wouldn't bother to play the top teams at all if I was in one of the bottom teams. No point to it at all.

Or even one div with 26 teams in it!! Still would be some rapes ofc, but every team would have good chances of winning games vs several opponents as well. ;)

On more serious note: that would certainly lead to inactivity greater than seasons ago, I can bet. Which would result in another record low in singups in the following tourneys etc

How about going the other way? 2 divs. Still would be some rapes ofc, but every team would have good chances of winning games vs several opponents as well.

Those divs listed above by rkd seem very ok ( too bad only 5 teams in div1 but what can you do?). ot sure about the rest of the teams, just for the Polish ones: dc2 and machinery in div3 (when there are 4 fivs ofc)

Perhaps something like
div1: sr, f0m, c88, tks, sd
div2: sd2, fu, blt, tossers, dc, ssc, csn, oclan.
Then possible divide leftover 13 clans to 2 divs aswell. I dont know div3 teams so no idea how to rank them.