"FU with kassim and Diki is strong and could easily match well with current div1 teams. And they are not even the worst case in division 2."

Well thanks about praise but really? :D Vesus whom? Maybe two years ago but not anymore. To beat div1 team with weaker team you cant do _any_ mistake, you have to get a good start and for more kill about 15-20 rl's in each map. In other words you have to own the opponent completly. All respect for Kassim but is he really that good? In dm4 yes but in 4on4?

So how Im ruining the games? Atleast all games I have played have been equal and extremely tight so despite my history it shows which is the right level to play.

And damn at least Im not afraid.

Murdocs assembled ideas are okey but who will rate the players and their activity to play games or help others. As long as there are some group doing these decisions there will be whine. And I think we should use voting more in the scene. Democracy for ppl!

great idea Murdoc, post it on qw.nu, few can read it here.

murdoc, because people dont whine about it, it has to be good idea. Anything good noone wont write ever in this scene..

So I paste something and everyone goes idle? :(

it was gg

I highly recommend div3. There's basically no whine, very relaxed guys, fun-oriented playing and a friendly approach towards the competition.

Actually, I feel sorry for those who are just looking for that in the game but are too strong for div3 and have to live with all the blame, envy and chitchat in div1 or div2 :)

By decisions I mean:

"And for last, why should I pick some random clan to play with when I can play with my ex clan and still some players are the same?" (c) Diki

He is ofcourse free to play with whatever team he wants to. However, he shouldn't expect to be allowed into EQL (that can only be viewed upon as great bonus). So if he wants to play with his friends nobody is stopping him. But why should it come at such a high price for everyone else?

FU with kassim and Diki is strong and could easily match well with current div1 teams. And they are not even the worst case in division 2.

So what am I getting at?
It's peculiar that the people being afraid/not active enough/lagging of/for division 1 where they belong have no problem joining division 2 to ruin the fun for the legitimate division 2 clans. So this is where the EQL admins needs to step in and make sure that the people who are in the division where they belong can have the experience they deserve. It's the admins responsibility. EQL isn't run by your tax money, so where does all your expectations come from? Why makes you think you deserve it?

always had a soft spot for you ser, so maybe we can work something out ;d

rkd, unfortunately in large divisions like ours, there is always going to be victims. nothing can be done about it! unless you have loads of small ones.

i know what you are saying though about the additions, making teams stronger. in our case we had to because people left and we didnt have a team anymore.

for others it clearly isnt the case though and i agree its very lame.

anyone eql tonight? (friday)

This is my idea (or rather mix up of all the idea's together)

Make another league next to EQL.

Let people join who are willing to teach and learn..

Rate every player and make a team based on rating of mixed skills, so all teams end up almost equally. (1-2x div1 and 2-3x div2).

Make it a short season like EQL pro with fixed schedule (sunday night?)

This way you only get people that are willing to grow/learn and not people that just play for fun. The learning curve of the div2 players is much higher because the div1 guy(s) are teaching them. Equal games.

All the things people learn can be applied to their own team in regular EQL league.

Not sure about playoffs, do we need any ?


I left div3 out because that skill gap is way to big, they need to get some basic 4on4 skills first. (maybe allow som exceptions?)

rkd, I agree. And as you recommended, whine. :D

I got no problem with div1's in div2, I got no problem with csn's lineup or our probable mid position in div2, we can compete with all teams in this div and I don't see any team that can rape us.

But I still for the life of me can't see why teams like dc2, luis, machinery etc should have to deal with having be put into a div where they are allready the bottom teams then have the top teams they don't really stand a chance against have votary+squeeze+diki+od+springs etc added to them.
But sure I'll get out of this discussion for good now, it's these teams that should whine if any.

Diki is an expert fisherman.

Hehe, I know you cant know everyone but it would have been a damn epic faking since he then would have faked around 60 prac rounds and 40 official rounds for csn undiscovered :P

sajkostats

Check it out!

Even I watched the wiki side I don't know him. Its hard to know everyone since specially swedish use to change nicks every season and have multiple nicks.

I don't care if that was a stupid question, as I said apologies my ignorance.

But hey I wrote a suggest about new league type at blt - sr whine board. Check it out!

no more div1 players in div2?

The only reason I would come back to play qw would be to be in div2 to get some high frags tbh :)

Sqeese makes this shit look fun.

"If Diki had bothered to check wiki" - thats a nice rhyme dude! Cool for a song chorus!

If diki had bothered to check wiki, previous seasons and/or csn stats page he didnt need to look stupid about that sajko thing :)

"Sajko who is he? Some div1 fake? seems to be your best player. (Sorry if I just dont know you sajko)."

What? :) lol

In Australia in the era of smackdown (say, 2001) the scene was a lot smaller than even EU now and there was one team which dominated both SD1 and SD2. In SD3 one of the strongest players from FA (the Australian one) defected to my team of TF'ers, THDM and everything became a lot more even. We won! (yay).

Obviously a couple of 'superstar' players extricating themselves to a lower team and boosting their capabilities has the effect of weakening the team they're leaving and strengthening the team they're joining - possibly leading to a more even competition overall.

I'm not saying that's something that should happen now, because I'm sure that those still playing together in div1 are quite happy with the friendships etc they have there. But maybe it's something that those individual players could consider on a personal basis in the future.

As to the whole playing to improve etc thing or being happy where you are thing... I've been playing this stupid game since 1997 and 4on4 since about 2000. If I was ever going to become some sort of quake superstar it would have happened by now. I could probably manage div2 with enough practice and maybe some tp mentoring. But I'm old and have a job and other things to do which mean that's just never going to happen. I suspect that a lot of other players are in the same boat and while they get a kick out of the competitive side of things, it's not something that is at the top of their priorities. That is until the season starts and things start getting a bit closer and then all of a sudden the pseudo-casual qw'er gets a bit more keen and wants to win. If you're in this for the competitive side of things, it's sort of natural, I guess. Even if you just want a hop around and shoot stuff, you still kinda want to win.

I have no conclusions on this last rambling point.

You all guys should play more and talk less.
Is there anyone who is definitely NOT having fun with the league? I don't think so.

The point is nobody like to loose and when that happen, the reason is because the other team has div1 players.

Once that is fixed, the reason will just change to another. Lag, inactivity, bad luck, rainy weather, whatever.

The pos-gaming whining is natural and will always exists.

Ok it may have been wed or thu, really cant remember... usually I play just weekends. Still I had some lag problems... not huge but still. Who cares about days anyway it was not the point...

Divisions are only right way when we have serious/pro and sunday players.

We didnt play vs FU on a friday or saturday and still you played. Dunno why you twist the facts all the time :D

The problem still isnt div1 players in div2. So cool it down a litle. The problem is the division system. Period.

#44
Oh my god rkd. You little whiny bastard, Chosen has a better team in paper and even you are better than me! What about Hagge? Div1 start player, Xero as well div1 and better than me, Sajko who is he? Some div1 fake? seems to be your best player. (Sorry if I just dont know you sajko).

I am the most active player? Read the stats... Kippo and Buggy is. And I have played some pracs but you can check how many maps we have won.. We have played vs div1 clans or div2 clan with paradoks or someone high div1 as a standin. So we are really trying to make progress but it doesnt happen in one night.

You are free to route thru me anytime. The fact is that Im using shared 100mbit with 50 ppl (university network) so fridays and saturdays are best for gaming (and those are the days I have been playing so far). Anyway if someone starts downloading my ping jumps 100 and pl 10-20. And I remember in these two games seconds that I had lag and lost weapon cause of it and even worse left a pack.
Yes I know its not your fault that I have unstable ping but still. Im moving next month so hope I will get a stable connection then.

And for last, why should I pick some random clan to play with when I can play with my ex clan and still some players are the same?

I also note that Milton and me was in div2 not so many years ago and no one whined back then.

And last there is no clan in div1 I could or want to play with.

Keep the div system. Keep the whine.

You're team isn't lame, that doesn't change the fact that diki said he would very rarely be able to play and that he has shit ping.
So far he's the most active player in your team in EQL, and he has had great ping.
So that first of all was quite a lame lie, secondly the problem was never that diki shouldnt be allowed to div2, my problem with it is that he's allowed into a div2 team that is allready a contender for the title.

"Or all the FU guys who played in div1 a few seasons ago, the whole team must be lame..."
The skill difference between diki and the rest of fu is large, there's no denying that, but again that's not a problem either.
So, again the problem I have is that admins are creating a division based on the skill of the teams, then afterwards letting the top teams get MAJOR increases to their lineup, while the bottom teams are left in the dust.

Mostly talking about squeeze to an allready votary empowered Oclan, not that they needed another div1 to be able to compete.
Phren in immortals, fix in ablz, this is how div1 players should be in div2 teams.

#38
That was my idea when I suggested the Random teams tournament on the QW.NU forum.

Just try to divide the div1 players who want to join div2 teams into the "bottom" teams of div2 instead of allowing all of them into the allready top of div2.
Right now it's admins who are increasing the skillgap within div2, not the div1 players who want to join div2.

Cara, what decisions are you talking about? If it's decisions about whether these "too good to play in div2" guys are allowed to play in div2, who else could you base your decision on?! Hello world!

Anyway, so far div2 looks okay? The real problem can't be these div1 players shitting the league, that's not happening is it? It's more "they won us just because they fielded a div1 player". What about all the other players who played div2 last season and are now on par with these div1 guys? Or all the FU guys who played in div1 a few seasons ago, the whole team must be lame... There will always be skill differences between players and that's life. This is not individual competition, this is 4on4. Maybe we shouldn't post screenshots or give fragcounts individually... Or not let the div1 member take any quads so he gets less frags?

Definitely sounds like there's room for some other type of tournament.

dib, dc2 does not belong in div3, ask hooraytio ;)

I think it is nice when a div1 player pulls the team and teaches others, like fix in iabl. Unfortunately not many players/clans have this possibility. So Hooraytio, how about the following method for the next season:
1. generate a list of all players that have signed up
2. Assign them in the EQL committee ;) a number of skill points, from 0 to 100 perhaps to each person.
3. Add points for players in each team
4. Draw 1 or 2 lines in the middle of the list -> gives divs.
5. ???
6. Profit

Since when should a league base their decisions on the inactive players with shitty connections? It's a contradiction that knows no limits.

Split the "starplayers" from div1 teams, and we will get like 30teams in div1.

noone wants to play the "rape-div".
that will salve the problems.

nice to have all the good players in like 3teams, thats why your all alone in div1.

Hooraytio: The reason I wrote that was because you asked for the reason why I didn't want to play div1, which I had already answered, and second you were stating that div1 players would ruin div2, which imo isn't based on any facts. I think current div2 looks just fine when div1 players are spread out between teams.

You're also taking the phrase out of its context. It was meant as an example of the skill difference between div1 players and div2 players, and not really possible to read as I would rape every current div2 team. Secondly many of the current teams in div2 has div1 players, increasing the skill level.

I wouldn't join a div2 team in the previous seasons, but looking at the current lineups I don't see a problem with joining a div2 team, as long as it doesn't get unbalanced over the teams. The skill gap between the higher div2 and lower div2 will most likely increase, I agree on that. On the other hand the lower teams also has the opportunity to recruit some better player too.

In my case, I hadn't even reflected that phrenic is playing for Immortals, lol, dunno if me joining is such a good idea then, but I'm guessing its up to you to decide whats balanced and whats not in this "topped" div2.

I would like to include all teams tho. Otherwise you still get the division whine on the borderline between those who end up in the 2 seeded divisions and the ones who end up in the "old-div3".

"Blahblah we are too bad to be in seeded divs and clanx should take our place instead of being in div2"

JohnNy_cz is pretty much spot on here. What he suggests was actually tried once in NQR, I personally thought it was the best way to introduce division 2 teams to the highest level of 4on4. You basically have two split groups, Div1a & Div1b, you seed teams based on this seasons performances in div1, say #1 and #4 goes into Div1a and #2 and #3 into Div1b. You then do the same thing with div2 teams, this way theres at most two tough games (based on what teams signup for EQL15) and the rest should be fairly even. I don't see how this is anything to complain about. You then make two different playoffs, perhaps Gold and Silver.

"Teams that doesn't belong in div2 should be in div3."

If it was that easy there wouldnt be a problem each season when we make divisions :)

#31 is pretty much spot on what I would suggest. More or less anyway. Also, nice boildown of what has been discussed :)
Small gaps between opinions usually lead to canyons when given enough time :P

I am not the one thinking that everyone should or could progress. I strongly oppose the notion that everyone can become div1 with enough practice. What I also oppose is that while at the same time you tell regular div2ers to progress you drop down to div2 because you have progressed enough or because you think div2 should progress for reasons unknown.

Also, its nice to see that dimman must call med blind or stupid just because he has too little time to play on his real level. If you have so little time then why is it worth your time to "rape all div2 players" as you put it? :)

The main thing here isnt even div1 players in div2. It is that the division system is flawed and since so few clans want step up, players rather relax and step down, it is very hard to make equal and competetive divisions.

Not sure why you guys disagree with each other, to me it seems like your requirements are compatible. If for example there would be div1A, div1B and div3 divisions in the following season, div2 players can still improve by having a div1 player in their team, as dimman suggests + nobody would whine they have to suffer against true div1 teams, (as Hooraytio objects). Those few div0 teams would be split into two groups, so the suffering would be minimal + there would also be enough of games against regular div2 teams.

lol people already complain about divisions when they loose with ~100 frags difference.
-> Next season no more divs please :)

I'm happy with the games in div2 now, and I think that even with some teams having div1 players, the games are being very competitive and nice.

maybe dc2 belongs to div3?
Have you guys ever think about this option?

When scene gets older and doesnt get new players the ammount of middle skilled players will grow while there are less and less top players and complete noobs. There is nothing bad in it.

I think div2 is better than ever. This time we really can see some nice playing and the overall skill level has increased.

Even we so called div1 players in div2 would get united, how many games we would play? Atleast Im happy if I will have time to play 10-30% of games in div2. And if we would join some active div1 clan.. we would be benched every time they have that real and good lineup. So after a while these would just retire qw.

How many years have you Hooraytio played in div2? Don't you ever make progress? Maybe its your time to do a next step and go div1! :)

"All the facts presented speaks more and more for the abolishment of divisions since there are no rewards for improving to the next division anymore." - Look at how the situation has been:

The reward has been that they have stayed in the same division because the skill gap is too big. So again, this is what I want to change by increasing the average skill. How is that bad?

#24: Well welcome to reality, it will always be like that. Question is if we want to gain _something_ on it or just keep up the braindead'ism that has been.

"I just wanted to hear the real reason for not playing in div1. Not just that they arent active enough, or got bad ping." - I gave you the reason, either you are blind or you are plain stupid.


" I mean, is it better to ruin some div2 game with your inactivity and bad ping? :D" - Really stupid comment.

I don't play in top div1 given the reason I explained before, can't see how I can make it more clear.

Lower div2 teams are allowed to take in higher skilled players to improve ofc, same rules goes for them?

When having higher level games you will automatically play more focused and I'm fairly sure most people will improve without even thinking about it.

Teams that doesn't belong in div2 should be in div3.

What's so hard to get about that? I also seem to have a lot of people thinking like wise.

I think we all enjoy even and exciting games. Its just that the skill-gap in div2 has exploded after the start of the season and alot of games wont be remotely close. The lowest div2 clans will get nearly as bashed as BLT in div1 :P

Yeah, creating new teams suck but there are players who are active in div2 who used to be in the same team last season or the season before. So the reason for quitting that team was something else than everyone going inactive I guess.

At least I enjoy much more an even game than getting supporting forum comments from people I don't even know (not that I ever got one).

Also, divisions are what they are made, and this time Div1 = Milton and Dave so I can understand less active/good/whatever Div1 players fleeing to Div2 where the less serious competition lies.

In addition to that, making a new team takes energy and it is much more tempting to join some a team that has been around at least for some time.

The problem arises when some clans wont accept that certain players in their lineup earns them a place in a higher division. I know its not very rewarding to respawn for 20-60 minutes (ive done it oh-so many times).

Because of this, for this season we made a "pure" div1 (alltho some teams wanted to play there anyway despite not having a div0 lineup) to avoid the whine and idling that usually occurs when we try to make div1 a little larger.

What i dont understand, however, is why we should add div1 players in order to raise the general skill lvl when in fact the clans who did this before (became better and was put in div1) folded after 1-2 seasons in div1 because it wasnt fun and they couldnt reach the playoffs anyway.

If the division2 clans should get better there must be a good reason for it, not just becoming cannon fodder in div1 and quit playing.

Its just a flawed argument that better players will raise the div2 skill level.

Arguments like Fix just gave are in fact easier to understand and also makes sense.

little smile x)

if hora wants reasons, im here to input my own which goes as follows;

Only way i would have taken part to div1 would naturarelly to play with cmf, and since fifi didnt want to play this season, as in my opinion hes such a big part of the team, no fifi,no cmf,no div1.

for me it would be all about nostalgy at this point(playing with cmf,and in div1)...keeping alive the memories of the old "hc" times when there actually was huge amounth of competivines and desire to beat them all. times when atleast i did spend huge amounth of hours playing the game.

but since things didnt work the way i would wanted...here we are.

call me twisted, simple minded or what ever. i selfishly assume i have every right to do what i did.

There is always the problem with the lower skilled teams giving up when the top end of the division gets too good since they have no chance, not even in theory :P, to get even to quarters.

Which is also a common argument for not wanting to be a lower skilled clan in div1. "We have absolutely 0 chance to go to playoffs so why play?"

Is div2 somehow fucked up now?