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Look, I'm no carebear. Open PvP is the most imatnoprt feature for me in any sandbox game. However, making safe zones out of the major cities doesn't bother me in the slightest in fact I think it's a good idea for exactly the same reason AV does. It's necessary to make this small compromise to attract a significantly greater portion of players. I think there's a significant number of players who are lukewarm or hesitant towards 100% open PvP, and this gives them the opportunity to gain a greater appreciation for open PvP without diving in head first. Most people don't start swimming in the deep end. They still have to leave the cities to do almost anything anyway.Even if it takes away more or less from the open PvP feel (less for me), it's worth it for me to play a game that will have a stronger player base and survive. I think in this case the compromise is worth it to attract more players. The MMO market isn't going to become sandbox overnight it's going to take at least some compromise during a transition.

It seems obvious to me as I run a load of tournaments/leagues for the small (but growing rather than shrinking) community of Ultimate Frisbee players in my city, but the DRAFT LEAGUE was the best thing to happen to QW in the last decade, and if we alternated between EQL and Draft League formats then I think tons of players would stay interested in playing, new connections between players would be made, new clans would be formed, and so on.
I took the Draft League idea into Ultimate and it's like the best thing that's ever happened there too - I now run an annual weekly league and an annual weekend tournament in the draft format, which are very popular and which I'm convinced get the weaker players playing more, learning more, and staying with the game where otherwise they would've quit.

Having been on both sides of this equation several times (win/lose by 300+ frags) my personal opinion is the best thing is to play 100% (or at least 85%) as usual. Like Cara said it is kind of disrespectful to start laming around and it used to annoy me a bit if my team was getting raped and then I'd see an opponent teamkilling/trickjumping/axing/whatever which is kinda "you suck so much I don't even need to pretend to play normally". Even in a 'lost cause' game I used to at least feel some reward from making nice frags / manouveurs against elite teams but that feeling is massively diminished if you know they aren't trying.

Likewise is the 10+ years I was actively playing 4on4 I don't think I ever deliberately idled/ragequit (except if the phone rang or whatever) in any game no matter what the situation. If you play in competitions, you have to be prepared to lose and sometimes by an embarrassing scoreline.

Hehe. Some drama now and then just shows we care.

wow qw drama is back also! :D

In my book it´s way more disrespectful to not give it your best when facing an opponent. I believe the opponents deserve as much regardless of your or their skill level. It´s what competitions are all about, doing your best under the circumstances without any excuses.

comment #44

I agree, play serious. It's the only way imo.

dmt: going for a "fragrecord" was basically just an unserious statement in TS.. it just ment "ok lets play seriously then" after we had a short debate if we should play with some sort of handicap or not.
So we ended up playing serious in first map and unserious in the other..
None of the two was very great.. so what do you suggest we should have done?

I agree with hooraytio and co: that playing serious is probably the best..

There is no solution other than these games should not happen in the first place.. but it is what it is with these few clans left in the scene..

True, more clans is what is needed.

Signed up is signed up, I'll play if my team needs me. But I was thinking there's something to learn from this, to avoid the div0 vs div2-div3 clashes next time.

No-one is forcing anyone to play :) just an idea! i

If thats how you feel I wont force you to play.

BD sums this up well. Matches like these will be a waste of time for everyone involved almost nomatter what is done. So the lesson is they should be avoided.

As for the case this season: I'd rather have an EQL division B with 3 teams playing each other several times. I think that's better than having to waste 9 x 40 mins to get two interesting matches. Or one could just drop div2 teams from EQL if they are too few for an own divison, as there is clearly no room for them in division A.

I'm not a fan of handicap because you lose your "feeling" for how many rockets/cells etc. it takes to kill an enemy. It's fine when the game doesn't matter, but if you're trying to warmup and get ready for the playoffs or more difficult regular season matches, you really don't want to mess with your timing and habits. The team that's "benefiting" from the handicap will also get a false sense of when they should be attacking versus retreating, since they are surviving a lot more damage than they should be. Not a good way for someone to improve.

As a somewhat philosophical opinion on the issue, I can see both sides. The noob team doesn't want to be embarrassed, and the good team doesn't want to "waste" time playing without strategy. However, there is a difference between purposefully trying to embarrass a team versus trying to play as tightly and in sync as possible to practice strategy. The actual outcome (e.g. 450-0) might be the same, but one version is not meant to be an insult. (I'm not judging what happened here, just speaking generally).

Also, it's easy to say "don't lock low or tele", but for me the game is only fun if strategy and timing are involved. TDM is very different from FFA precisely because of all the additional strategy, and it's very difficult for me to have a good time playing if I'm not trying to keep track of item times, teammate positions, enemy status, etc... and use all the information to decide what to do next. If I'm not trying to play as good as I can, then the mental stimulation isn't there and it's a waste of 20 minutes from my perspective. Conversely, if the enemy team isn't trying to play as well as they can, then I'm not getting challenged as much as I should be, which I don't appreciate either.

But really, in a situation like this where the teams are so unbalanced, I don't think there's a good solution :) The good team can clown around and waste 40 minutes from their perspective, or they can play properly and the worse team will feel like they wasted their time. I don't think there's much middle ground when the gap is so wide. The good news is that this match is now out of the way, and nearly all the rest of the matches should be tighter.

There are always exceptions, such as if the teams are too unbalanced, then the good team can purposely lose control and practice gaining it back. Also, if the game is too easy, I might make a phone call at the same time so that at least I don't feel like I wasted time running around without thinking, but in some ways that can be even more insulting to the enemy than just locking the map.

Sorry for the incoherent rant, just felt like rambling :D Also, I wrote as if I'm some kind of pro, which is only true in NA. It would be true in EU if I didn't have a huge ping disadvantage :D :P :} !!!!

P.S. GO CANADA IN THE OLYMPICS, FINLAND GOING DOWN ON SUNDAY.

If they win ofc.

Ye, good points. How about giving teams +1 points for trying to play with handycap? for example 0.5 points for 50% and 1 point for 100%.

And how will we know wich clans they are before the season? Also, why wont you let the 4th weakest clan play vs handicapped opponents etc etc etc? Sorry, not a very good suggestion.

Why can´t top 2 clans just play with handicap 50% on against lowest 3 clans. It´s already 40mins waste of time anyways. at least then they would have even couple of frags at start.

Nothing you post makes any sense so far.

It is now rumored by some ppl on IRC that some "div1-wannabes" opted for one division so that they can be called a div1 player at last. I have to deny they meant Hooraytio by it, he just wants to boost activity with a sd-div99-sort-of games and is doing great so far!

CMFS aiming for "fragrecord" in dm2 vs such a team in such an EQL? Would have it been tVS doing this I wouldn't have been suprised but CMFS? jeez...

cheer up... you haven't played sd yet!

Horaytio, forgot that the teams joined after the signups had ended. Sort of makes my point moot then.

Erlend, utterly raping someone is not ridiculing. It's actually the opposite as the opponents treat you like equals and with respect. It's a waste of time but at least personally I prefer losing when opponents play properly than being given slack like you would to a child.

Signed up is signed up.

Sorry, meant slackers vs tpa on dm2. On e1m2 some of SR fooled around.

Sure, I really dont condone that kind of stuff like killing mates, using axe, suiciding etc. And I hope we dont have to see more of that this season.

But just playing the best you can, like most of cmfs did on dm2 or like slackers vs tpa on e1m2 in eql15, that isnt humiliating, thats just qw propaganda. I hope you can see the difference.

Anyway, as long as the enemy team tries to play qw as it should be played you're ok then?

Hehe, that 1st example was actually last time I played (Dustman). I quit QW after that. The other two examples you had look like fun games, I have no problem with losing like that. Again - there is a big difference between losing big and being humiliated.

#16 The best thing to do is to always play the best you can. This isnt some kind of socialist dream world where everyone is supposed to be equally good and get equally rewarded.

#22 was directed at #17 as well.

I still hope D99 can find some good spirits and play thru the season.

5 divisions really helped this time:
http://eql.quakeworld.nu/eql5/matches.php?id=234#Played

This time too, what an equal game:
http://eql.quakeworld.nu/eql2/matches.php?id=188

Wow div4, such equality, much close, very skill: http://eql.quakeworld.nu/eql10/matches/144#Played


You can have how many divisions you want, some team will still be the best in each division and there will even be very uneven games. Learn2qwhistory.

Comment #17 is so extremely stupid. Get some reading skills and stop drawing ridiculous conclusions.

Noone has said this is the best season ever.
Noone has suggested that the most unevern games are a spur for new teams and noone has even come close to call this particular game good.

Uneven games will always happen, even when there are 6-7 divisions. Just check the old seasons.

Sorry for whining. But that DM2 last night really killed my spirit.

This is blown out of all proportations imo.
That 20 min. on dm2 are almost gone from my memory and it didn't really bother me when it happened.
However, if ppl insist on finding this too demotivating, maybe in such matchups try to avoid dm2 because these extrems seem to be more likely to happen on that map.

Well, on the other side, dm2 was our map IIRC:))

Hooraytio: Not split personality, I was just wrong, I take it back. Worst case scenario is not nostalgia, it is motivation and fun killed and quitting QW again. Also, I understand the tournament setup problems and I am not sure there is a better solution than the current EQL18 setup (though personally I think it'd be better not to have the div2 clans there at all).

Mipa: Yes, I changed my mind. I can get a lot of fun out of a huge loss, but there is a big difference between losing and being ridiculed.

Our starting point is: We suck. We know it, you know it. We know we'll lose 18 of 22 maps this EQL season. But do you have to break our spirits too? Do you have to take away the few good moments we get in a 400-50 beating and make it 450-0? I guess I was hoping people would be noble minded enough to settle with trashing us, not humiliating us too.

Stop bitching! Play top teams or don't sign up! Hooraytio has already explained that this EQL is the best ever!
I had a lot of fun watching this game. It's a great spur for new teams. I'm sure they will be flooding the game soon!

hehe yeah fix I was wondering what you were doing on dm2.. :) but then i remembered we just said it on TS..

but yeah it's a tough call.. in first game we played serious (except fix).. and believe me I felt kind of bad to timing the low rl..
maybe that's why i started killing teammates instead on dm3 with 100cells quad/lg.. it was just too tempting :)

but as someone pointed out.. i don't know what is most boring, 20 minutes shooting at spawns.. or just playing unserious..
anyway you do it, it is gonna be boring for both teams..

but anyway it is overwith now and maybe you get some funnier games the rest of the season..

The fact that 3 more, on paper, weak clans signed up when it was clear that there would be only 1 division further refutes your argument about hesitant clans mipa.

It doesnt make sense that any team hesitated to sign up since the original idea was to make atleast 2 divisions. That argument is a bullshit one that can only be used now when there is only 1 division.

When not enough clans signed up there ws no use in making 2 divisions.

The plan for EQL 19 is ofc to have more than 1 division. Lets hope enough clans sign up.

Erlend already changed his mind? Not that long ago you seemed quite fired up to meet teams like Suddendeath.

I don't think these games serve purpose to anyone and actually might bring harm to both sides. If the better clan plays in its normal ways, it'll be extremely boring to both sides and it's really bad for the lesser teams motivation if these scores keep happening. On the other hand, if the better team purposely plays worse than it could, it'll likely make them less sharp when meeting teams that give a better challenge. Also personally I feel it's even more humiliating when top clans fool around and still beat you with ease (see tpa vs sr @ eql 15).

I think it would be better to put the clearly lower teams in their own division even if it'd make it a 4 team div. It could be the needed motivator to make the hesitating shit teams join the tournament and make it somewhat fun for them instead of this silliness.

erlend i heard after the round boys were aiming for some sort of fragrecord for dm2. i wasnt on ts and had other ideas, it could have been worse.. :)

I have to agree with you about camping ra/mega low rl on dm2 vs a much weaker clan tho. Its not against any rules but it is perhaps a bit unethical :P

Do you have a split personality Erlend?

Some of your comments:

"I'm Div99, and I agree with Hooraytio. Bring on Carapace & Co! Worst case scenario, it'll be a nostalgia trip. When I played in the 90s, 400-10 was not an unusual match score."

"I didn't like CMF beating us 450-0 on DM2, but the rest of the games have been fun, even though we've lost them all by a large margin. And I don't think it's fair game to criticize Hooraytio, the only guy bothering to set up a tournament nowadays."

I know how it feels to be on the receiving end of a game like this. Directly afterwards I used to whine like hell too. It didnt change anything tho, those guys were still way better than me and my options were to quit or just get over it and hope for better games down the line.

I have played since 98 and never really gotten any good at this but when I manage to play really good now and then all the boring losses are so fucking worth it. Havent had any greater feeling in a computer game than when the team plays really smooth and wins in QW 4on4.

I wanted as many teams as possible to sign and I hoped for atleast 2 divisions but when only 9 teams signed up and only two were actual div1 clans it felt better to just make one large group. Then a few more teams signed but it was still impossible to form 2 divisions because of the skill distribution in the clans. There are perhaps 2-3 real div2 clans. Should I just cut the 12 clans in half and place 3-4 clans that absolutely dont belong in div2 together with them, and also have double meetings?

Its not always that easy.

With the risk of sounding grumpy, is it reallt necessary to camp RA mega and time low RL for the last 10 minutes when you're leading 250-0 after the first 10 mins? Is winning not enough, do you have to humiliate the opponent?

I think it's better to not have noob clans in EQL if you can't have them in a 2nd division. There's not much point of D99 being in this season's EQL imo, and that goes for two other clans too if my skill assumptions are somewhat correct. If I could do it again, I wouldn't have signed up.

Just my two cents.

well said, one must not lose faith!

From my perspective I see games like this dm2 as a tribute to pay for keeping QW alive:)
Other then that, it was to be expected with only a few clans signing up and us beeing noobs by profession.
We have to be realistic, EQL with only a few clans with huge skill differences is better then no EQL at all.

must be one of the weirdest games i have played in, hopefully 40mins of aim and movement practice served both of us in at least some sense.

Well, just give it your best shot and look forward to b-playoffs. I have to work with what Ive got each season and imo this was the best solution with this number of clans and also the actual clans that signed up, skill wise.

I have to say some more about this game, as most of our remaining games could be like this (I only speak for myself here).

Personally, I don't see the point of CMF playing 100 percent serious for 20 minutes with complete map lock against noobs like us. Is shooting at spawn spots for 15 minutes fun? This was a pointless waste of time for all of us.

There are two interesting games for us this season, and nine where we'll be raped like this. I'd prefer to just play those two and do a WO on the rest, as this is just a waste of time I could've spent playing mix (which is fun).

Yeah, this is the type of game that makes me want to quit QW again. I think it's pointless for Div99 to be in EQL if there's not a division B. Better for us to stay away and enjoy speccing the good teams if there are not enough for two divs.