"Quite many more maps" is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen.

3 votes were the difference between cm4 and 3, giving the possibility that 1.2% of the total players were the difference between cmt4 being in the pool and the map that consistently showed the highest quality custom games in recent years.

Add to this the fact that, of all the clans I talked to, at least 3 clans said they were definitely voting for something else, despite cmt3 being their preferred map, because they assumed that cmt3 would get in anyway and they didn't want to "waste" their vote.

You can't see me, but trust me when I say that I am laughing at the absurdity of this whole thing.

"Add to this the fact that, of all the clans I talked to, at least 3 clans said they were definitely voting for something else, despite cmt3 being their preferred map, because they assumed that cmt3 would get in anyway and they didn't want to "waste" their vote."

Well wasn't that a waste then I don't know what is

Yeah, shaftfest ad unpredictable pent at cmt4. LOL, that map will be a total misunderstanding

It's just so counter-intuitive when the whole argument against additional maps is a decreased standard of gameplay, and then the map that shows the highest-quality games gets removed. No wonder no map ever climbs to the levels of tb3 when any map that people learn gets removed the following season.

I urge the admins to reconsider this. Perhaps hold a second vote to determine the second map; The equivalent of allowing each clan to choose a second map, which would have been a good idea from the start anyway?

I'm gonna go ahead and sound like a real dick now so here goes:
What clan are you playing in in eql12? oh none you say?...
Anyway that cmt3 is the "best" kenya map is your opinion, just cause a map is incredibly easy to play doesn't make it good.
I bet blaze is wanking off reading that cmt3 won't be played in eql12 :D

I'm not playing because my current connection status does not allow me to be reliable at peak times. I do have a clan I will play with should my situation change. Also, you're a dick.

I don't think cmt3 is the best kenya map. Nowhere have I ever even implied that. It is, however, a decent map, and it produces relatively high-quality games more often than not. I don't see how anyone can object to that.

I don't think it's incredibly easy to play when compared to the other custom maps present. Midcit is the easy one, and my hatred of that map is well known by now. The LG position is very tricky, making for some interesting ambush possibilities, and RA presents quite a challenge, despite being the primary focus due to its connections to most areas of the map, its advantageous position on quad, and the red armour itself.

And blAze will be wearing out his right arm as we speak, since this is pretty much his dream kenya lineup.

One more point about cmt3: It's the only custom map to come close to tb3 levels of activity in leagues. It was played 39 times in EQL10.

That's a lot considering cmt4's peak popularity in eql 8 resulted in 28 plays where it dominated the custom pool far more than cmt3 ever did.

What's the point of changing the kenyas every second EQL? Why not keep them stable? If the most popular kenyas are cmt3 and cmt1b, so why not leave it that way? Now we're gonna go back to that shaftfest-randomRA-stupidPentbehindthebars map?? What's the point?
And I suspect that people voted for some other map than cmt3 because they assumed it was already in and their vote would have been thusly wasted.

Can we discuss it again? VOTE NOW!! :)
Whine and drama on :EE

If you want drama i can join the admin crew :D

Excellent, the only decent kenya map is back in the pool and cmt3 crap is out.

"It is, however, a decent map, and it produces relatively high-quality games more often than not. I don't see how anyone can object to that."

All the games I played in it where total crap quality. So I'm definately objecting.

"I bet blaze is wanking off reading that cmt3 won't be played in eql12 :D"

What really makes my day is seeing the cmt3-fan #1 making up all these nonsense arguments and whining about it. :)

"If the most popular kenyas are cmt3 and cmt1b, so why not leave it that way?"

Because cmt3 was not most popular, cmt4 was. Check the vote.

I am very happy for this map choice. CMT4 surpasses CMT3 by a million of lightyears. I don't understand your whine, what the hell are you whining about? If CMT4 won the vote then it simply won the vote, stop whining and move on? And just watch some legendary CMT4 games, I've never seen such exciting games on any map, it's a perfect one :)

I think the vote is critized because you only chose 1 map. That means that the 2nd most popular map amongst the cmt1b voters could be excluded. The ones voting for cmt4 might also have a different 2nd map in mind.

However, since the vote was designed in this way we will not know what the clans 2nd choice was.

Ye, I personally am not too familiar with cmt4 and voted for cmt3. Nevertheless as cmt4 won so let it be.
My idea is like that - cut this bullshit discussion off and lets move on...

In the midst of a massive debate about stability in the map pool, I doubt this discussion is irrelevant.

I don't see the problem in a quick vote to determine people's second map pick before the divisions are finalised. It wouldn't take long and would put to rest a majority of the entirely valid criticism of the selection process.

I agree that every team should get to vote for two maps. Otherwise, tactical votes like the ones Stev mentioned could actually backfire both towards the purpose of the poll, which is to find the TWO maps most teams want to play for this season, and for the teams themselves that might not get to play the map they actually had most desire to play besides TB3.

You have made your bed, now sleep in it! I for one will enjoy cmt4. =)

Hey kenya guys we can always go with this vote if cmt4 is not good enough for you:
http://www.doodle.com/qckphwwun5mm48ss

:)

I'll pass. :P

Still, that poll is still hugely interesting to me. I was genuinely shocked how it was 21 tb3 votes in a row and then extra maps took a better than 50% share on all votes since then. Does that say something about the vigour with which conservatives will act to defend their cause, or was there a heavy word-of-mouth campaign in the opening hours of the poll?

Perhaps the link was pasted to clanmates and friends? It is not surprising that some guys in the same clan or from the same clan background think alike.

True, true. I wonder will the current trend continue or was the early surge in voting indicative of a significant majority's desire. Time will tell!

One div-whine and one map-whine news thread, wow Christmas comes early this year!

dont forget the 500+ comments on the qw.nu news :)

haha rofl, thanks I had totally missed that one.

Yeah i cant remember anything close to that on a single new item before. Around 200 and interest died out. But the comments cover so much! Maps, talent, luck :D

stop with the whine!

Can we change our vote from CMT1 to CMT3? Plz :E

#1 Stev

You sit there and you laugh at EQL's face when all you do is bring some fantasy arguments to the table? "You talked to 3 clans that... blabla" Lol they must be the biggest idiots voting 'strategically' and then getting it back in the face when their map is not included. At least EQL's arguments are based on facts and on a very simple POLL and you are still going to defend your cause without ONE single argument?

3 votes difference: a fact and is an arguments against you
consistently highest quality on cmt3: that is just your subjective opinion but i will give you this: you really do make it sound like a fact... almost
talked to at least 3 clans: so now you bring this strong anecdotal evidence to the table? they had their fair chance to vote and messed it up

I am actually amazed at how you just don't stop at anything. You just keep repeating yourself "map x is better than map y" and then when half of the community says they disagree you are still going around repeating it like it's a fact or something.

You are entitled to your opinion Stev, but keep in mind that it reflects YOUR VIEW on things rather than facts.

I also prefer cmt4 over cmt3, but for div1 I dont know how many of the top-teams actually will pick these maps. Maybe it will give the lower clans a chance to win on these maps :)

hehe Stev, one can tell you really like cmt3.

But don't you think it would be pretty weird if they went : "cmt4 won with 3 votes but since it was only 3 votes we decided to take cmt3 instead because it is "obviously" the better map."

"At least EQL's arguments are based on facts and on a very simple POLL"

The poll simply doesn't answer the question what two extra maps would the clans participating in EQL most want to play on.

Neither does it answer the question what is the best map according to each clan. There might be the concern about wasting a vote (cmt2 was never going to get through for example). The vote might be used to pick the map the clan has best chances on and so on.

This was apparent from the very day the poll was introduced and the concerns were raised back then. This is not whine based on the results.

Basing arguments on talking to people, observing previous seasons and actually playing the game is in my opinion very valid.

I'm quite disappointed about the bizarre way the map selection was done, and especially about how late the map pool was decided. But what is done is done. Hopefully we can overcome these mishaps and have a good season anyway.

Then maybe in the future we can learn from this, and get the map pool sorted out at the end of the previous EQL giving people the opportunity to practice before the season starts.

In any case I'm happy that there are people who still are willing to run leagues even amongst all the drama. :) So props to them.

Dont tell Johnny_cz that you base your opinions on what you hear and see on the servers though, according to him thats total crap and everything must be backed up with diagrams constructed from a very serious statistical material...

Yes, and all the credits and big thanks to the admins for running it :)
I know this feeling as I ran the Kurwaliga one year ago. Tough as it may be. Thanks again guys !!

How long will you continue to whine? Till cmt1b and cmt3 will be in a map pool? You wont get too many fans with this attitude, be a man, do some real life business, dont be gay at all.

I don't look upon Stev and Medars comments as whine. More like tips on how to improve the poll at an eventual later tourney. Cause clearly, when two maps are gonna be added to the pool, each participating team should have two votes for two different maps to make the poll fair, yes?

man, they are commenting everywhere, and keep pushing their propaganda. It is so irritating, even if i agree with the last comments of their.

When electing a parliament for example, we dont give as many votes as there are seats to fill, we vote one option that is best for us. 2 map vote would be just as skewed, people will vote what they think others dislike or are bad at, not where they think we would have the best games.

"The poll simply doesn't answer the question what two extra maps would the clans participating in EQL most want to play on."

Yes it does, because people could vote on the maps they like most.

This might be a bit late and offtopic but I am totally clueless to where this clanvote for maps was. I've been looking like crazy to find a thread on qw.nu, forums and EQL site where the clans cast their votes on a map but haven't found anything.
So where did the clans vote? :D

@rkd
ask your CL rkd :P

I like both of them. Be all cmt maps selectable! Why is this not possible? Both had been choosen on many competitions. This is certainly favor, in contrast to the E2M2TDM.

Let the map pool TB3+CMT1b+CMT3+CMT4 be! oo/

"all cmt maps" include cmt5b and cmt2 as well

give us cmt3 :E

"Yes it does, because people could vote on the maps they like most."

No, it really doesn’t because the voting system is fundamentally flawed for a situation where you want to choose the two best maps. Example:

Let’s say of the 39 clans, 38 voted cmt4 and 1 voted cmt1b. CMT1b is then allegedly the second most popular map. However, the reality may be that the 38 clans who voted cmt4 might all actually prefer to play e2m2tdm than cmt1b. So of the 39 clans, 38 of them are unhappy with the second map in the pool. You get a map in the pool that only 1 clan has any interest in playing.

When you need to choose two things, having 1 single vote only is inherently bad. You need to either use an elimination voting system (iterative voting over multiple rounds where the least popular map is eliminated after each round and then votes recast), or adopt a point scaling system or similar. You need to understand that these arguments have nothing to do with maps or even computer games (so whining about cmt3-lover Stev is completely irrelevant), they are just implicit in voting systems. For example, the elimination system is typically used for electing political party leaders here and works well.

"When electing a parliament for example, we don't give as many votes as there are seats to fill, we vote one option that is best for us."

Voting for parliament is a whole different way more complicated problem, including parties, party alliances, emphasis on different areas etc. It's also bound by limitations that we do not have in QW due to smaller vote and it being virtual and all. No-one thinks the system for electing parliament is perfect, it's just something that kind of works in practice. And obviously different countries have different system with their stronger and weaker points. Not to mention that the point of the election is to elect representatives for different viewpoints, and is thus nothing like the map vote.

The problem about not being able to vote for underdogs is also obviously well known in the elections. In the Finnish parliament election it's supposed to be alleviated by having the vote go the party. Party gets X number of seats and then those seats are filled with the highest vote counts within the party. Similarly in the presidential election a two round system is used, so even if your choice doesn't make the cut, you can still choose between the top two candidates. Only reason there are two rounds instead of even more is the cost and time that would be required.

I just can't see how this one map vote could possibly yield better results, when compared to a two map vote or to different iterative voting systems (2 or more rounds).

HangTime, I understand that it has flaws, as does ANY type of thing you come up with to decide this issue. I just disagree with the way some people are raising hell about almost everything and they don't seem to stop until they get what they want.