Feels like every top team of their time had problems getting pracs though...

FF, LA, SR, TVS... did F0M also have this problem?

I mean aKKe started the ladder admortem in order to get teams to play out of their own division but teams just asked for "ladder now div4" anyway...

You must realize that there exist teams with a different scope from your own though. A lot of the teams are happy in div2-3 and are not aiming for div1 at all. It is kinda clear since every time the top div2 teams are moved up there is some controversy with clans that quit (hello immortals) players that switch clans (hello persuader) or only play versus the less skilled div1 teams (hello again persuader).

If you aim at being the best or be top4 or whatever, then prac versus slightly better teams all the time. If you aim at playing qw more relaxed then why waste time on big losses and rapes every game?

We have kinda few clans and players left so it would be a shame to see ppl quit.

I still fail to see what goal tVS had for this behavior. They claim they acted like this because we have refused to prac them (which we obviously haven't), so I guess they were unhappy about the AMOUNT of prac they've had vs us. By behaving like this they're almost guaranteed to not get a prac vs us at all, and that is as far as I've understood not what they wanted, so what purpose did it serve in the end? Guess it only served them to get rid of some frustration, or have a good laugh if that is where their humor is at.

Glad to see that they FINALLY understood that the rules they tried to force on us to give us a disadvantage, could be used to the same degree by us and that the result would have been everyone on 38 ms. Tried to explain it several times during the prewar ping whine, but I guess it's hard for some people to understand.

You dont have to worry about it Rikoll. Seems like we are not going to play vs you ever again.

To be honest it sounds like some frustrated little boys need to get their dicks wet

Hoora: the probe is not div2 clans not playing us, I get that. Hell the problem is not even top teams not playing us. The problem is the embarassing laming about the subject from F. Saying that they don't have people for prac and then 5 minutes later looking all around IRC for prac opponent. If you don't want to play us then at least man up and say it.

And about the ping rule, there was an error in my line of thought. You are wrong Rikoll. Once the lowest pings in both teams are the same, it won't have any effect any more, because you only have to ping up the lowest of opponent. The intent of the rule is clear, and you really need to start twisting to make it something else than it is.

"The value for the minping must not be higher than the lowest pinging player in the highest pinging team, unless both teams agree otherwise. The maximum minping that can be required is 51."

That's really quite simple. We were the higher pinging team, and our lowest ping was 25ms. Your players which had lower ping than that, should have pinged up to 25ms. I mean you always did have the option to simply follow the rules and start the game, but I guess F is above the rules.

lol, blaze and tvs still going on about the pracs, fucking hilarious!

we praced them plenty this season and we never rejected them a single prac when they have asked us and we had people, even if we had praced them 24/7 until now I bet they're attitude wouldn't have changed the slightest.

Did we reject tvs pracs in the season before that? Yes.

Why?

Because this clan had about 9 players at the beginning of this year, whenever I wasn't around they didn't prac tvs or sr for that matter, they wanted to play more even teams. blAze obviously can't realize this and continues his 1 year old grudge with fusion, gg.

Like para already said, sr, much like fusion last season had a lot of different players with varied skill level and this gave us a bigger selection of clans to prac against. Thus we had the chance to prac far more than tvs.

to me this doesn't seem to be an arguement that anyone even wanted to start, just that someone threw oil on the fire and now everyone just tags along in the drama.

It's ridiculous really =) just stop it everyone and grow up, even though it indeed is fun to read, noone wants something like this to result in anyone quitting the game

You're obviously living in your own alternative reality where things that actually happened, somehow didn't happen. :)

I can, however, understand Fusion's attitude. If you are to prac a top-notch div0 team, surely you need to gather the best roster possible. Otherwise, it may be useless: either a rape or a totally misfunctional game when you end frustrated and feel that you didn't learn anything.

I wonder how we got to the point where the ping rules, that haven't changed since EQL1 is being bend to get an advantage.

I've never seen any team playing the "it's the rules" card when pings are clearly even, normally the avg is all that matters unless some player is pinging higher than 39ms..

It was quite clear that it wasn't about making it fair, it was all about bending the rules to get an advantage and making a scene.

The only thing that's changed regarding the ping rule is that this part was removed.

"Admins can however change the rules if they think its unfair in some games!
so if u got ping problems call on an admin."

-That was clearly a mistake

zzzzz...
calm down guys.

Zalon: when it comes to pings, someone is always at some kind of advantage. If you suddenly put some "always 12ms" swede up to 52ms against Zero, then obvisouly he'd be at disadvantage. We asked F to follow the rules, they refused. You are an admin, if you want the average ping to matter, then write it so in the rules.

Pesonally though, I think the current ping rule is just fine compromise. It would have prevented F having half of their team with ultra-sharp 12ms while not upping anyones' ping unreasonably high.

blAze, I specifically wrote that "normally the avg is all that matters unless some player is pinging higher than 39ms"

Here I had players like zero in mind, I play in a team where we have a Russian living far far away and always having high ping. We never count his ping, that's our problem, like zero's ping is slackers problem. The rules also take this into count, because you can't demand people to ping higher than 51ms.

However, if you're facing team zero, all with high ping.... You should ping up to 51.

The thing is, that there is like 1ms difference between 25ms and 12ms on the scoreboard. I have 13-15ms on foppa/wg, giving me 25ms on the scoreboard.

I see little reason to demand players to ping up when we are talking 12ms vs 25ms, and it's not all 4 that have 12ms.

When asked during the prewar, I told you how the rules are, and that it was in your right to demand it. Itsinen then proposed a compromise that you agreed to, also according to the rules.

The rules are kept short and somewhat simple, because noone wants to read 100 pages of rules, I've also tried to restructure them better to make it easier to find the rule for each subject.

cl_earlypackets 1 ftw eh? Nothing wrong with 38ms. Any player who pings 51+ (zero and insane spring to mind) and still owns gets my respect :)

Just play the damn game ffs. Yeah I know no-one cares what I think :p

holy shit. no need to put on bold and the beautiful just yet!

what is this drama? WE have antilag, so all ping whine is useless. lol

"I see little reason to demand players to ping up when we are talking 12ms vs 25ms, and it's not all 4 that have 12ms."

It has been our principle that games should be played by the rules. I think we got some hate from SD at some point when we wanted them to fix their f_modified reports and scripts.

As you say, the rules are pretty simple. So why is it so hard for some people to follow them?

The ping rule is more of a guideline for finding a server that's suitable for both teams, you don't have to enforce it on your opponents.

If it's two Swedish clans, and all players get their best ping on pangela, then the idea behind the ping rule is not that a player with 12ms should up his ping to 25ms, if it's clear that both teams want to play on this server.

Now I know that something like that would never happen (Swedes not all having 12ms to pangela), but the intend of the ping rule was not to always force everyone to ping up to the lowest pinging player of the other team.

"The ping rule is more of a guideline for finding a server that's suitable for both teams, you don't have to enforce it on your opponents."

This time we decided to request them to ping up, so at that point they could have just followed the rules, pinged up, redied up and skip the drama.

You contradicts yourself all the time, blaze. In your first posts, you defended that you acted the way you did because you thought we had been lame throughout the season by not pracing enough, and therefore you had the right to act lame by delaying a scheduled official game by 30 minutes just for the heck of it as a payback.

Now later, you defend this stance as the correct thing to do, because "according to the rules" it should be so, and try to make it appear like WE were the ones being lame by not immediately ping up to meet your stupid demands. Also take note we didn't even waste any time at all demanding you to ping back up on the DM2 game. Why? Because we're simply not bothered, and the game was already 40 minutes late cause of your shit acting earlier, and who knows how much more time it would take to get you to ping back up if we actually went down that road.

It's very hard to know what to say to try to reason with you, cause you change your stance towards the subject all the time to suit your needs. My last two cents on this matter though:

In the first case, where you described your behavior as a way to act because we apparently had refused to prac you earlier in the season. Now we disagree on this as well, but it doesn't really matter to this case, cause whatever personal grudges you carry with you towards a team, delaying a scheduled, official game by 30 minutes just for the heck of or own amusement, is BAD SPORTSMANSHIP. Period.

In your second stance, you try to explain your behavior as the correct thing to do, because according to the rules we should have pinged up no matter what, to give you an advantage even when the ping was fair, and also try to push the blame for the delay over to us. You fail to see that the same irrational line of thought could be used against you as well, and that the end result would be 8 players on 38 ms. I'm not even gonna try to explain this, since you obviously seem to lack the ability to think rational, but believe me, "according to the rules", that would be the result. As Zalon said, the rules are meant to be guidelines, and aren't there to be bended for a team to get an advantage over another team in an already fair environment. If both teams did this, a server would simply never been agreed on. It's nothing in the rules that say a team can force another team to ping up, just that cl_delay_packet or rerouting COULD be used if teams disagree on a server.

During the prewar before this game, and the comments here, you just proved that some of your players really have bad sportsmanship, or that some of your players just lack the ability to think rational, or maybe even some of both. I don't expect you to understand this, cause well, frankly, I think you (blaze in this case, not tVS in general) lack both good sports AND ability to think rational.

about sportmanship Rikoll.
You did do it all the time saying you dont have 4 players and then praccing with someone else 5 minutes later.
You did come to say in private manytimes that u dont know why your teammates behave like they do.
Your teammates did ask us money if you would prac vs tvs.
Your teammate did say that he would like us to be as rusty as we can be in our game tvs-f and that we wouldnt get any prac.
and that is... sportmanship by fusion

You teammate has also said many times that if tvs would stop playing since we lost interest for qw coz the lack of prac he would bet noone would miss tvs.
I dont know why u were like that many years. I think its stupid to keeps that kind of grudge just if Xantom wants to play with tVS or something :/

"about sportmanship Rikoll.
You did do it all the time saying you dont have 4 players and then praccing with someone else 5 minutes later."

It's a fucking prac, we chose to prac who we want to. You have previously over the years shown very poor sportsmanship in I'd say pretty much all of your games where you know you wouldn't get an ez victory from the opponent. Nice try to blame it on us after you made an absolute fool out or yourself trying to bend the rules to your advantage.

"You teammate has also said many times that if tvs would stop playing since we lost interest for qw coz the lack of prac he would bet noone would miss tvs.
I dont know why u were like that many years. I think its stupid to keeps that kind of grudge just if Xantom wants to play with tVS or something :/"

I suppose with "your teammate" your referring to me? And there's a reason for everything, stop acting innocent here Ihminen. Pretty much every "quote" you've brought up here have been completely ridiculous jokes, seems like you can't take jokes at all by the look of things. And the last quote about denying you pracs so you would be rusty was said the same week as the semifinal, hence as a statement that we wouldn't prac the same opponent we were playing in the semifinal, as it would be absolutely pointless to even have a semifinal in that case.

As for Xantom I hold no grudge to him joining tvs, much like I doubt he cares where me and lacsap plays, for all I know, his antics seem to fit your clan perfectly.

There is no contradiction Rikoll. According to the rules we had the right to request you to ping up, and you'd have to comply. However it's also true that we probably wouldn't have made that request if you hadn't been acting so lame recently.

Rikoll, your team has shown nothing but bad sportmanship towards us in the past years, so why would you expect anything else from us now? Because we're better sports than you?

"It's a fucking prac, we chose to prac who we want to."

So at least you admit then that you did avoid praccing us, you lied about that here and you lied about not having people for prac when asked. Great. Also trying to play the joke card it seems. I wonder who is making a fool out of himself now...

Give it a rest guys. If you need prac for your next game you know where to find us. Other than that I don't think we have much left to discuss about.

Second round has started! *grabbing popcorn*

You don't see a contradiction between:

".. it was just a little payback for all the lame shit we've been taking from these guys over the years. Everybody knows the pings were of course just fine."

and:

" ..
That's really quite simple. We were the higher pinging team, and our lowest ping was 25ms. Your players which had lower ping than that, should have pinged up to 25ms. I mean you always did have the option to simply follow the rules and start the game, but I guess F is above the rules"

Thus, first saying you delayed the game deliberately, then turning around and saying we're the ones to blame for the delay since we didn't ping up. Then I feel sorry for you, and got nothing more to add to this since your mind isn't capable of simple reasoning.

So everyone's being a dick to everyone because everyone's being a dick. This is a fantastically viable long-term strategy which won't have any negative repurcussions at all.

"first saying you delayed the game deliberately"

Can't you read what you quote. It doesn't say that. If you want to complain about someone's reasoning, maybe you should first learn to read. :E

The result of your "little payback" was a delay. Reasoning again...

the smoke seems to have cleared...

The result of your laming was our paypack. Reasoning...

We didn't delay the game btw. We excercised our right to request you to ping up (which could be considered lame because the diff was 2ms).

You then decided to refuse to follow the rules and delayed the game.

I see smoke! *pausing bold and the beautiful*

So it is confirmed. tVS have no principles against acting like they did in official games, to get a payback for players and/or teams they have a personal grudge against. In most sports, that would be considered a total lack of sportsmanship, and I would think and hope most of the QW community as well.

I have no interest in interacting with players / teams that don't see the difference of what you did during a tourney game, and our supposedly avoidance of pracs vs you. If that is the case or not, we disagree on, but it doesn't matter. This is the lamest shit I've seen during any official game I've witnessed as a QW player, and shows a total lack of respect for the opponents (and to some degree to those spectating the game) time, and is way more unsporty than any amount of prac that could have been avoided ever.

I just wonder why Rikoll keeps answering/retorting when he clearly gave his last two cents in #71.

Im not saying he isnt reasonable, I just wonder what he gets from this. But that goes for everyone from the two clans really. I dont see how any of the two clans benefit from this.

(Yeah Ill admit it is hard to keep quiet, I cant stfu either in most cases, so thats perhaps what one get from this. Some flaming to keep the blood warm :D )

Different opinions collide and noone wants to change their mind, much like the map issue and some other issues.

With that said, I think that's sad, because up to this point I've always had a lot of respect for all you guys, and never had any bad experience at all concerning tVS, even though I've heard rumors from earlier times. I was also quite unaware that you really had this grudge against us, since I thought we were one of the teams that played you the most. I'm totally aware we avoided pracs vs you the last week before this game, but the sole reason for that was because we were gonna play this semi vs eachother.

Well, it was GGs :-(

tb3 next season!

Well Rikoll, what you guys have been up to is the lamest shit I've ever seen in OR outside of an official game in my QW career. And trust me, being here from '96, I've seen a lot of lame shit. So graz.

+1 #89

yes give tb3 back!

How about settling this issue in another round of bo5? (tb3 only? :E) Replay the semi and the winner plays SR straight after. That seems fair to me as a spectator that had to waste 30 minutes of my time while listening to your whine :/

I still favor the bare knuckle fight between you and pektopah hagge! And im sure you would win too!

We can settle it in a series of 20 tb5 pracs. :)

oh please, both claiming the other side pulls of the lamest shit you ever seen? delaying a game for 30 mins over a ping discussion? refusing prac? it is fucking _NOTHING_ compared to ALOT of dramas in the past :)

Where is Link and his "lame ever" when you need it :)

#74 nitram
"It's a fucking prac, we chose to prac who we want to."

So now its like that... untill this it was "we didnt deny any prac". And yes, you dont have to prac vs us if u dont want to but the way you allways did it was really lame.

#74 nitram
"Pretty much every "quote" you've brought up here have been completely ridiculous jokes"

Hmmh, yeah its not that kind of joke that makes me laugh that when i ask prac from you guys in a good spirit you for some reason dont want to and then Skillah says that we would have to pay for you for the pracs. Then someone else comes to your channel a minute after and asks prac and u put smileys and "sure" and go to play vs them and then make fun saying "keep trying pracs". Yeah.... not good jokes.

You really showed that you enjoyed the fact that we dont get pracs and acted lame. And we just wondered your behaviour.

Why else would Rikoll have to say in private that he doesnt understand his teammates if it wasnt the case that Rikoll would like to play vs us and the rest of you for somereason not.

#100 woot!