A few players ruin div5?

2006-04-05 02:10 by term

Lets have a little debate about the current "situation" in div5. I'm refering to a few div5 players that clearly could play in other divisions. We sure have missplaced a team or two, for that we are sorry, but it will probably happend in every EQL. What were interested in talking about is mainly what to do with players that joins late.

The current "solution" is to not have rules for this, everyone may join any team the like and hopefully the ammount of div1-3 players that wanna play in div5 is managable. This is probably quite fair and sure easy for us admins to deal with but were not sure it makes div5 as funny as it should be.

One side of the coin is that anyone should be allowed to play for whatever team he/she likes to and that teams must be allowed to recruite good players to improve (compare with Real Madrid or Chelsea).

The other side is obvioulsly that div1-3 players in div5 makes theire teams better then the other div5 teams, ie boring matches and less oportunities for other div5 teams to qualify to div4.

What we need is suggestions to improve this in EQL4, preferable strict rules that are easy to understand and follow. We are not that eager to have admin debates and look at demos for every single player that joins late.

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Comments

#1 2006-04-05 02:30 by Term (85.226.178.XXX)

And btw, azz1d in div5 team TOC used to play as sir_spazer in GTG. He is not using any other nickname nor play in any other team (as far as we know) so we will not give TOC a warning for this.

#2 2006-04-05 02:54 by znappe (213.114.242.XXX)

ah well, not so sure about that, but who cares 8)

#3 2006-04-05 08:40 by joulukuu (80.186.11.XXX)

lol you noob admins didn't know that zsnappe has played in other divisions in earlier nqrs and eqls??

#4 2006-04-05 09:36 by TheEvilDog (193.235.89.XXX)

I don't see the problem with znappe for an example, ZaK have not raped and won every game. Actually they have lost 3 and games and won 3 games so what is it to whine about, that one player got more frags and dominates?

And mogge in j?garna, they have won one game and it was without mogge. It's different if the ordinary team are good and add a div1-2 player.

#5 2006-04-05 09:47 by Hooraytio (193.10.229.XXX)

I think it is a little problem when we are trying to get new ppl to discover quakeworld. but this season has not been as bad as others have been with ppl faking or whole teams got misplaced or whined their way to div-lowest.

just use common sense when clans add new players or want to join with a mixed-skill clan. its imposible to put every single player in a compartment and call them div0-6 and think that they will stay that way for ever. activity changes and so does individual skill

#6 2006-04-05 10:14 by son (81.51.128.XXX)

totally agree with theevildog, someone like znappe can play in div5 if the other players on the team balance it out and make them a div5 clan... 7-6 is a fairly balanced map record in my book.

the problem is if a team that could have easily played in div3 to begin with then goes along and adds another high caliber player in DIV4! and thus rapes clans by 300 frags on dm3 *hint hint*

#7 2006-04-05 10:20 by fer (86.131.175.XXX)

son, I did ask for mor to be placed in div3 but the admins refused...

#8 2006-04-05 10:21 by Hooraytio (193.10.229.XXX)

that was bad judgement from admins

#9 2006-04-05 10:24 by son (81.51.128.XXX)

i know you did, that still doesn't make it right to go out and add serox to a lineup in div4... especially under a fake nick... maybe if you had gone up to the admins and said, hey we got serox in hand, they might have actually put you in div3. dybbuk surely is not the worst team in div4b, what do you want to do with the 2 us clans on a uk server? rape them by 600? 900? see if you can break some old slackers records?

#10 2006-04-05 10:32 by Hooraytio (193.10.229.XXX)

#8 referred to adding serox
not adding mor to div4

allthough if mor had ser from the start they should be div3

and to come and say "i will only play a few games" then what games? the most important ones? a team should be able to field their best signed players and face the right opponents, ie dont add a player who affect the standard of the team and makes it look better if he is not gonna play a majority of the games or maybe only play vs the hardest clans in the division to help the team to overcome them in an easy fashion and then let the other guys play the worse clans on their own...

#11 2006-04-05 10:39 by Hooraytio (193.10.229.XXX)

besides this is off topic
discuss this under the game dyb-mor instead.

on topic: it is too hard to rank all players thus maiking an admin decision almost neccesary when some player joins late.

Or do not allow players joining late unless the team is idle unless they get a new guy. finally USE THE NICKS THAT ARE KNOWN TO THE COMMUNITY... and make it alot easier for the admins

#12 2006-04-05 11:24 by cpe (158.75.215.XXX)

I agree with Hooraytio's last statement. would be muuuuuuuch easier.

#13 2006-04-05 12:22 by Anza (80.222.234.XXX)

So what is this shit about using different nicks in the first place? Seems to be that 99% of fakenick users are swedes...New league, new nick.

#14 2006-04-05 12:50 by old (153.1.250.XXX)

How about letting hi-bies prac(teach) in div5 teams, but not play in the official games?

This could give a bit more spice to div5 games, but not ruin the important official games and in the end; the playoffs.

Maybe those who just want to rape in lowdiv wouldnt like to play there if they cant play in official games. And otoh those who have interest to help noobies, would have the chance to do it -for real. Or whatever.. for discussions sake ;)

I know the div5 peeps need lots of advice etc, so imo banning the skilled guys from there alltogether isnt very constructive. Lets try to build the qwscene up.

Rename div5 to 'Elementary school' :p


..for discussions sake.

#15 2006-04-05 12:59 by Anza (80.222.234.XXX)

Well i play in div5 and I can honestly say that at least we have some oldshool guys there that have no hope whatsoever as regards to learning 4on4...Maybe it is different with newbies.

#16 2006-04-05 13:18 by vb (211.30.158.XXX)

I agree with the statement I am writing now.

#17 2006-04-05 13:37 by anonymUs (85.178.136.XXX)

In my opinion players/clans that try to deceive the other participants as well as the admin crew should be punished hard because they are destroying the concept of the league.

As long as QW can stay as anonymous as they can now i see no satisfactory solution to the problem. Present and past show that there is always was a considerable number of players who abuse the divisional system and destroy the fun of other players.

It seems if you want to be sure to play vs "equals" you will have to play against teams that you know and trust. Maybe the good old tradition of clanwars outside of organized competition should be revived.

#18 2006-04-05 13:40 by peppe (81.170.206.XXX)

the problem is when you see fragdifferences on 20+ frags(Every game)
I like what old is talking about, like suddendeath.project, we were total noobs on the 4on4-scene but sassa and bagheera and more sd-folks helped us get som sort of routine on tb3-maps.

On the other hand, if sassa/bagheera would have JOINED sd.p it would be a difference not worht mentioning, and this is what's happening. I hate to give certaing nicks/teams away but since jmk split up, 2 of them are still in their div! the rest went to div4/5
is this really not a problem? this happened with fu too. You will now say that "well he really was div4/5..." this is complete bullcrap imo
I know one man can't make the team but it's a total difference, you can see it in the gameplay. Who takes quads etc...
Admins, please reconsider on EQL4 which players plays where.
And before anyone starts commenting on what I just said, remember that we live in a free world and we can think differently.

#19 2006-04-05 13:45 by Hooraytio (212.214.218.XXX)

if some player gets +20 frags on every map they win it is not really a big thing. if a clan has a certain quadrunner he will often score alot when they win.

to really spot a problem is when a clan loses and they still have the topfragger of every map with +30-40 frags to the other teams topfragger, then u can really spot a player who is in the wrong division

#20 2006-04-05 14:21 by Renzo (88.113.232.XXX)

"I hate to give certaing nicks/teams away but since jmk split up, 2 of them are still in their div! the rest went to div4/5"

There are 3 ex-jmks playing in div2 currently. 2 of them are playing in different clans in div4 and one is playing in div5.

Now if you check the div5-game fak vs j?garna, you'll see how one player couldn't make the difference.


"this happened with fu too. You will now say that "well he really was div4/5..." this is complete bullcrap imo"

Now if you watch their performance on the game (pick any game) you'll see that actually the clan those oldschool FU's joined isn't doing so great at the moment. I guess you need more than a year of experience before you can make proper judgements.


Sure, there are wrong players/teams in wrong divisions, but it's not really that bad in EQL as it is in NQR.

#21 2006-04-05 14:38 by Anza (80.222.234.XXX)

Peppe, just take a look at fak vs gibbers dm3 screenshot... DIV2 ANZA POWER

#22 2006-04-05 14:39 by kingiz (217.119.37.XXX)

omg, this is the exact issue I was trying to talk about to the NQR admins. And here it is,
discussed on the EQL frontpage. Good that admins are aware of this problem.

#23 2006-04-05 14:46 by peppe (81.170.206.XXX)

anza, don't forget that t.g has a totally new lineup as well.
Renzo, "now if you..." NO I will not because it shows anyway
get the stats from nqr9 in the end of the season and look at these players and compare their fragcount to the rest
and no it's not as bad as in nqr but it's too late now anyway :(

#24 2006-04-05 15:13 by z (212.32.181.XXX)

peppe "don't forget that t.g has a totally new lineup as well."

Only think i can say to you is Bullshit. We have 3 new players this seson and one of them played alot with us last seson so just be quiet please.

#25 2006-04-05 15:16 by Term (85.226.178.XXX)

What about some kind of transfer rules, for example: "a late additional player may not have played in a division higher then the current-1 in any EQL before."? IE, div5 teams may only recruit from previous div4&5 players during the season, div4 teams from div3,4&5 etc.

#26 2006-04-05 15:16 by peppe (81.170.206.XXX)

what, am I wrong?

#27 2006-04-05 15:19 by znappe (213.114.242.XXX)

joulukuu: Zak is my clan so it's not like I just joined this clan over one night? I started it with my brother (deathwing) 8 years ago and I have never left it... so what is the problem? Is there any rule that all players in a clan have to develop the same amount of skill during a 8 year period or what? Admins placed us in div5 as a team (note: this is a TEAM deathmatch tournament). And if you look at our result I think that is fair since we won 3 games and lost 3 so far. Good enough answer?

#28 2006-04-05 16:27 by joulukuu (80.186.11.XXX)

Znappe: plz read the topic.

It could be that I haven't been following div5 very carefully, but it seems that there are exactly two players who don't belong to div5. Someone feel free to point out the difference between azz1d and znappe to me and I shall withdraw my whine :)

#29 2006-04-05 16:53 by Anza (80.222.234.XXX)

Well at least Znappe is playing with his own nick...

#30 2006-04-05 17:03 by Anza (80.222.234.XXX)

And, just look at the +/- rank of the gibbers and the number of maps they have won...I wonder if the fact that zanne is himself an admin and plays with another nick and the fact they have blau playing with another nick (and in div5, lol) has anything to do with this situation? I mean, who cares about anything as regards to lower divs if they don't?

#31 2006-04-05 18:26 by ?ke Vader (217.210.101.XXX)

It's really hard to be a judge on there things since some of the players who join less good clans doesn't make that big of a difference. Hence i don't think that a simple rule would be really "waterproof" but we would still have to evaluate clans from their practice results and stuff. This season we haven't cared at all about who players play where. Sure, when teams signed up and we saw that the good players x, y and z played in clan w then we moved them to the appropriate division. However, i really think that any player should be allowed to play with whatever teammates he wants to. Wouldn't it be kinda fucked up otherwise? I guess it's the late joiners that we have to prevent in some way to make it more fun for everyone.

Regarding Serox (Regret), Fah-Q (Mozart), Sir_Spazer (Azz1d) and Zanne (Iskall) i think all those cases but Zanne's are fucked up. Zanne played with the "Iskall" nick before we started the first season of EQL and people knew that. The other players however don't make sense. I guess it's bad for your reputation if you'd lose a match in division 5 or something, would really be the end of the world...

#32 2006-04-05 18:56 by Mozart (fah-q, blau etc) (81.172.140.XXX)

Actually I asked to be signed in as Mozart (blau), so that the admins would know who I am (blau instead of fah-q since I played with the nick blau most of my active qw time).

And I started to use the nick Mozart way before this eql season started (yea I like to change nicks so sue me). Ive never lied about what nicks Ive had in the past and i have allways answered truthfully about it.

#33 2006-04-05 19:40 by LILLD (81.235.204.XXX)

i have played in div2 yes, but i consider myself as a div3-4 player..
i got least frags in 95% of the games with jmk, and always most deaths, i cant even bunnyjamp damnit..

one player dont make a whole team peppe, and u know it :S

#34 2006-04-05 20:21 by Hooraytio (212.214.218.XXX)

i still wonder who this marvel guy in defs is...

#35 2006-04-05 23:42 by zanne/iskall -whatever (81.228.200.XXX)

Thing is guys, I am an admin in EQL. I think I've nicked Iskall when playing quake for as long as I can remember, but when it comes to IRC the nick is taken by some elite cs guy or equal. I did join a Div5 team for EQL3, I didnt know that it would go as well as it has. However, I agree with znappe, it's TDM not 1on1 nor individual play, we've beaten clans with players that I dont stand a chance versus 1on1. We have managed to get a really good teamplay, and I dont believe that to be only because of me and Blau.

If you think it's bad of me as an EQL admin to play in Div5 then there's nothing I can do but to qualify for div4. Remember this, I havn't played Quake seriously (other then 3 games with Postal Justice) since spring 2003, I pracced with T.G and we won by 10 frags or such vs a div5 team, it was a lucky win and I thought that I might fit for div5, so I joined them, we started to build our tp, pracced 3-6 praccs each night for a week - and it went well. Why dont you do the same instead of complaining.

Regarding the issue with late player additions, _ofcourse_ a player should play with the team he likes, and if they do well they will advance, that's the EQL system! However, imo I think that Late Player additions should only be able to be made within the first week or such.

If there's anyone who needs help with anything regarding EQL, or have questions about this post, please feel free to give me a pm, on IRC, my name is zanne.

#36 2006-04-06 10:35 by knast (84.147.11.XXX)

just give the div1 fakers a warning, and let them play just 1-4 games in div5, if they will not agree ban they for the next eql.

#37 2006-04-06 10:38 by knast (84.147.11.XXX)

it is just an idea for clans they are really misplaced not for clans who have just 1 good player.

#38 2006-04-06 10:39 by knast (84.147.11.XXX)

or let them play with handicap 80% .

#39 2006-04-06 12:01 by Iskall/Zanne (195.198.202.XXX)

Once again, the issue is not about single players, or missplaced teams, it's about faking elite players or late additions.

#40 2006-04-06 13:08 by Kalma (80.186.99.XXX)

Is it necessary to allow late additions at all when a season is only 8 weeks?

Make it compulsory to list a players all previous nicks on the team roster and (the _one_) nick that he uses in current season.

#41 2006-04-06 14:11 by fog (81.216.124.XXX)

At first, to comment Terms post #25:

"What about some kind of transfer rules, for example: "a late additional player may not have played in a division higher then the current-1 in any EQL before.""

How about changing that to "a late additional player may not have played in a division higher then the current-1 in the last 2-3(?) EQL seasons."? Can't that be a bit more fair?

On the other hand, as beeing a Oldschool noob myself, I must say i have already felt the skill difference in DIV 5 clans. I've been playing a bit 1on1 and 2on2 vs. a lot of Div 5 players, (often several players from the same clan) and some of them are obvious div5, and some other i can't say if they're div 2,3,4.

As I have plans on playing in the next EQL I welcome plans like this, to prevent higher div players from "destroying" div 5.

I think it's hard to set up some general rules for this, I think the admins have to deal with it "man by man" (or woman), either during the season, or after.

I don't know if there 's rules to prevent fakenicking, or to prevent 1 guy to play in several clans. But otherwise I would like to see some rules that says that a guy that has been played in a higher div and now wanna play like div5, but using another nick, shouldn't be allowed to do so. If he's gonna play with another nick, he needs to have a good explanation to the admins, sounds fair?

//fog

#42 2006-04-06 14:15 by fog (to comment Kalma) (81.216.124.XXX)

I agree with Kalma #40,

"Make it compulsory to list a players all previous nicks on the team roster and (the _one_) nick that he uses in current season."

See that as an addon to my last sentence in my previous post.

#43 2006-04-06 22:05 by JohnNy_cz (195.113.25.XXX)

Why should a player be allowed to play in any clan he wants? Why everyone from EQL defends this statement by "of course" and "it's clear"?
You said that you wanted "just to try it". Now you see that it completely ruins all the fun and you act like "well, what do you think"? Eh?

#44 2006-04-06 22:23 by Anza (80.222.234.XXX)

I agree with JohnNy_cz, why invent div system when people are allowed to break it just because they want to try playing against lower skilled opponents in order to "see how it goes" or because "well I was div1 then but havent played for two whole months so I MUST BE div5 now"

#45 2006-04-06 23:46 by Iskall (81.228.200.XXX)

Lame statements, so very lame. Ok, Jhonny, lets start a new league where players are fixed to a team and they can FFA all night long. One team has to win the division, and it's as a team, in our case we do not have a key player neither do we have a starplayer, we're all equally good and I mean comon, use your common sense.

To solve the issues we are facing I would suggest the following:
Play EQL seasons as they are now but tighter together, meaning 2 weeks break then new season (after playoffs)
No late player additions allowed, the roster is to be changed in those 2 weeks - eventually everything will be very fair since clans will advance and disadvance until they're in the correct division.

As for the records, T.G pracced against Defs yesterday and was beaten with about 300-10, T.G also played vs some other Div4 team today and was beaten quite hard, so please stop whining and go and have some pracs with your team, cause that's what important.

#46 2006-04-07 00:04 by ?ke Vader (217.210.101.XXX)

If we are going to allow any player to play with any team, then i think we have to remove the late player addition option. It's either that or we have to use a preventing hand at some times when clans request additions.

#47 2006-04-07 06:07 by Anza (80.222.234.XXX)

I'm not sure if Zanne really got Johnny's point

#48 2006-04-07 09:42 by Hooraytio (212.214.218.XXX)

as i have said before:

It is almost impossible to keep track of individual skill and thats why a team should not be allowed to add players mid-season as long as they dont need more players to stay active. If that is the case the admins need to discuss the matter and really think the addition through before he is allowed to join.

Now here is why its important to use the nick you are most known by. It is to make the admins work alot easier and dont confuse them with some new leet haxxor nick wich they will allow thinking its some noob.

Finally DONT add a player who is alot better then the rest of your team IF he is not going to play a majority of the matches. I have seen some clans with starplayers arguing for a lower division claiming that their star wont play all games. Then what games is he going to play then? The hard ones so that his clan will still own all teams? No, I say that if you want a really good player on your team then he should be ready to play most of the games and the whole clan should be ready to face a higher division than what they are used to...

Conclusion: Dont let any players join after the season starts UNLESS the team fears to get IDLE.

Thats my opinion.

#49 2006-04-07 10:19 by knast (84.147.42.XXX)

Maybe u should make something like "trail addition".
When he is a div1 faker u can remove him and the clan got his pain because it lost his addition slot.
So every clan thinks little bit more about who should they add.
And dont put clans in the same div as in the last season when they got a other lineup.
Btw some clans will die because they won for example the last div5 and will play in div4 next season.( same in other divs)
Some players wont play in a better div and they will found a new clan and play in a lower div again.

Maybe u should put new clans a div higher as usual. So u can avert the new fakerclans
+ do a kind of a qualification for new clans maybe they should play against sr, when they lose with 500 frags put it in div 4, 400frags in div4 etc:)

You have many options to avert div1/2/3 fakers in div 5 so dont blame us that cant do nothing!

#50 2006-04-07 11:33 by son (86.213.234.XXX)

players will find a way around any kind of rule you could implement on this subject.

they will just make sure that they aren't as easy to spot. they will play to their ability for the first few minutes to secure the map and let other less notable players finish ahead of them in the standings and then players will say "oh my, how good can be, he wasn't the topfragger". if they feel they are winning by too many frags (i.e. attract attention), they'll give up the map 5 minutes before the end and make sure the scores look ok. etc etc

you can't measure the impact of a player just by frags or by the overall performance of a team. its not fair if a team has a superstar in hand that they will only use when troublesome opponents or game situations come there way.

the only solution to the problem is to have decisive admins that apply common sense!

this has been mentioned before, but it would really help if players were forced to give up all their former nicks when signing up... if a player fails to do so, i would ban him from the league for at least the current season, maybe even the upcoming one as well. those are the worst cases in my mind, if players actually cheat their way into low divs, because the admins have no shot at recognizing them.

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